Christian Pastor Claims Being Gay Is Gift From God

Submitted by: fancylad 8 years ago in

I-A-B, thoughts?
There are 173 comments:
Male 12,365
nerdtchn...what on Earth possesses you to believe that Jews ~3400 years ago spoke and wrote in English modern English? Does it really make sense to you to think that they travelled thousands of miles and 34 centuries in time (how?) and chose to write their holiest text in that language rather than their own?

What the hell are you talking about? What`s this rubbish you`re talking about Doctor Who jews writing the Torah?

The text you quote is not Leviticus 18:22. It is one of many inaccurate versions of it in English, creatively interpreted to make the statement people with power wanted it to make, millenia after it was written.

Transliterated to this alphabet, Leviticus 18:22 reads "V`et zachar lo tishkav mishk`vey eeshah toeyvah hee."

I have already given an accurate translation into English.

You can make anything up you like and label it "Leviticus 18:22".

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Male 2,172
Yeah, sure why not. They`re just saying otherwise in the bible... it`s not like it matters you know.
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Male 64
Angilion: what the hell are you talking about? Leviticus 18:22 says "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination."

I don`t know about you, but this really doesn`t need any "creative interpretation" to say being gay is a sin for me.

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Male 12,365
Smiley-Guy...I think you should read the Christian bible a lot more, because your posts are wrong.

You say there are verses in which God talks about how being a homosexual is a sin.

That is not true. There are no such verses. Not a single one.

As an example, you cite an incorrect translation of a letter from Paul (note: Paul is not God), which doesn`t say that being a homosexual is a sin anyway.

I would bet good money that you have never even heard the word `arsenokoitai` (transliterated Greek) or why it`s crucial in this context.

I suggest *you* read the Christian bible, because your ignorance of it is making a fool of you. The shellfish thing is covered by Leviticus 11:10-11 Not far from the main verse creatively interpreted against homosexuality (that`s 18:22).

Would you like to try again on the stoning and general killing thing?

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Male 30
so yeah, those "christian pastors" are lying through their teeth. Wether they burn in hell is up to God..
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Male 30
verse as proof for Being gay is a sin:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
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Male 30
Angilion, there are verses in the bible where God talks about how being a homosexual is a sin.
oh and Chrisfalcon, i suggest u actually read the Bible before saying crap like that, where does it talk about eating shellfish <IN THE BIBLE> being a sin??? and wtf, "half the people in the world be stoned to death" if we followed what the Bible said??? ur thinking about the Pharasees, u know.. the people who stoned others if they broke a serious law, the people who thought Jesus was the prince of demons.. (until Jesus died and was reserected) aka: the people against God............ think before u speak
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Female 668
awww yeah, Gay is totally the new Black.
Heteros tryin to keep the Homo down...
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Male 150
I though when reading the title that maybe you could come to the conclusion the priest said that after a bit of quote mining, but no he just flat out says it in the first three seconds. That just knocked me out of my chair in shock.
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Male 12,365
"I know many people will dispute this but the reality is: The Bible speaks in many places about the dangers of being homosexual."

No, it does not. It`s not even mentioned all that often, and even those passages are open to dispute. For example, the infamous Leviticus verses might simply be forbidding Jewish men from engaging in ritual sex in pagan temples. I`m not joking - look at the context. Or it might be forbidding Jewish men from having sex with each other in a woman`s bed. That isn`t silly - there are many Jewish rules about things deemed ritually unclean (which is what the relevant word really means, not `abomination`).

"Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because it was rampant in those cities."

No, they weren`t (assuming you believe the account in the Christian bible).

"It`s blatanly called an "abomination in the eyes of God"

It`s called that by people who want to do so, but it is not called that in the Christian bible.

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Male 12,365
Following on from chrisfalcon`s third point, I have a question for all the Christians who apparently don`t know their own religion at all well:

On what authority do you pick one, just one, Jewish rule, pretend it`s clear when it isn`t, pretend it says something other than what it really says, claim that`s the word of God and must be obeyed...and ignore all the other Jewish rules?

You`re not making any sense when you do that. You`re just mindlessly doing what you`re told, even though it makes no sense even in the context of your own religion.

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Male 12,365
"christians dont ONLY believe in christ. All the books are there for a reason"

True, but the specific point was what Jesus said and that isn`t it.

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Male 12,365
"second. a man should not lay down with another man as he does a woman. it is a sin in the eyes of God. whether or not these "pastors" will burn in hell idk. that`s God`s judgement. but they are teaching what ppl want to hear not what the Bible, God`s own word says. end of story."

That is what *you* are doing.

If you care about what the relevent verse of the Christian bible *really* says, here is an accurate English translation:

And with a man you shall not lay lyings of a woman. It is ceremonially unclean.

I have seen a number of people stating other things as that passage and claiming it`s clear. Sure it is...when you make it up yourself.

If you want what is actually written, there it is.

If you want to make something up that suits you better, don`t pretend it`s that verse from Leviticus (either of them).

Then there`s the question of context - in this case, it`s ritual sexual practices of other religions. Maybe it`s just those that the verse is re

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Male 169
Breex33:

1) I "chose" to be gay the same day you "chose" to be straight. Which, perhaps, also coincides with the day that you decided to include that yellow phallus as your profile pic.

2) "Man shall not lie with man as he does woman"... Hmmm, the next time I "lie" with a man that has a vagina, you`ll be the first one to know. And what does "lie" mean anyway? Your god seems to have a strange sense of humour and a penchant for non-specificity.

3)According to your Bible, eating shellfish is also a grievous sin. Along with pork consumption. And a host of other things not even vaguely related to being a good person. As a matter of fact, if you follow the Bible word for word, then half the people on the plant would be stoned to death, burned to death, or otherwise killed.

Maybe you should read it sometime. :)

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Male 3,296
i am starting to hate religious people, which is kinda hard being that my sis is an apostolic christian, they are so lost in their comfort zone
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Female 710
Being gay is nothing special, but there`s nothing wrong with it either.
Oh well, at least he`s being nice and positive about being gay.
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Female 58
Boredx12-
"FINALLY.
I can quit automatically distancing myself from evey religious person I meet due to my inability to get along with homophobes.
Another little prejudice gone :)"

Agreed 100%.

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Female 41
"I can quit automatically distancing myself from evey religious person I meet due to my inability to get along with homophobes."

Agreed.

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Male 7,933
"sorry to people who write novels on here, no one reads them"

I do. Sorry that you lack the intelligence to read 1000 characters.

"And, because I can`t resist a good ad-hominem,"

Can anyone?

"This book explicitly condones slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, etc etc etc etc, in both old and new testament."

For about a year now i`ve posted reasons of why we dont follow some of those things.... apparently no one like to read what I`ve read

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Male 7,933
"What, like Paul`s letters to the Corinthians? What does that have to do with what Jesus said about anything?"

christians dont ONLY believe in christ. All the books are there for a reason

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Male 375
Charlie really likes to use the word "hegemony"
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Female 1,653
FINALLY.
I can quit automatically distancing myself from evey religious person I meet due to my inability to get along with homophobes.
Another little prejudice gone :)
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Male 4,593
I bet that pastor would kick Fred Phelps` ass in a fight.

Oh yes, there would be a fight.

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Male 502
When we were kids and asked why, our parents said, "Because I said so." Religion has a better retort. Why? "Because you will burn in Hell." Parents, please take note.
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Male 502
Jesus Christ on a cross people!! The Bible is a man-made doucument designed to ingrain social hegemony. To enforce that hegemony, the authors used the fear of mortality as a tool to indoctrinate that hegemony. No one likes the thought of dying. But if someone can offer you away to overcome death by your conforming to that hegemony, it sounds like a good and reasonable deal. That is, if you don`t think it through.
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Female 20
I may be wrong, but in reference to Sodom, wasn`t the city destoyed because of an overall and general wickedness? The residents are described as being "arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things..."

It wasn`t the butt-sexin` that got them hellfired, it was `godlessness`, the sexual deviancy (not necessarily limited to or including homosexuality) probably played a part but wasn`t the entire reason for it.

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Male 1,556
There Is No God,

Nuff said.

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Male 172
The almighty Oprah hath spoken! Put your Bible`s aside folks, Oprah is on.
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Male 12,138
TKD, it`s been done already, and quite an interesting read it makes for too. This kind of thing is why I find it hard to take the bible very seriously:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

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Male 1,596
I think saying anyone is a gift from god is going a bit nutso, even sedrick was like wtf
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Male 4,793
someday im going to thoroughly go through the whole bible and write down pairs of phrases that contradict each other...it wont be disputable cause they cant go `oh its in the plan` or anything, cause its from the facking bible, and the bible says you must believe in the bible.

its gonna be domination on hardcore christians.

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Male 14,331
So what does the bible say about hermaphrodites they`re just screwed either way?
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Male 231
To anyone quoting, or about to quote Leviticus: Have a shrimp c*cktail lately? Pork chops?

God saw you do that!

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Male 2,850
Why do so many people use the Bible as their social guide?

This book explicitly condones slavery, genocide, subjugation of women, etc etc etc etc, in both old and new testament.

If in two thousand year`s time millions of people are using Mein Kampf as their moral guide, they`d still be nowhere near halfway as insane as those using the Bible as their guide today.

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Female 1,070
lostinmexico, wtf.

I`m not a huge supporter of gay people, but your comments, like Dragonlord has already pointed out, just states things that happen in the bible. The bible is not a reliable source. If you`ve learned anything in English classes, one of the main things is to take arguments from a reliable source. The bible is not one. Which makes everything you say null and void, and not even worth arguing against.

"uneducated, belligerent, foul mouthed people"

Being called uneducated by someone who quotes stuff from the bible doesn`t really make sense imo. And you call us foul-mouthed after calling us uneducated and belligerent. That`s... really brilliant of you.

For someone who supposedly reads and follows what the bible says, and saying the pastors have lost their way and all that crap, you really don`t sound very, for lack of a better word, holy, at all.

Full of hypocrisy is what you are.

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Female 5,139
And i will say just one more thing on this topic,
whether you go around preaching to everyone and saying that being gay is a sin, or it isn`t a sin, you will never stop people from being themselves. If someone is gay, they are gay, there is f*ck all anyone can do about it, and nobody should want to, i think hell should be reserved for those who tell people how to behave and make people feel ashamed of their true selves, when these people being preached to don`t hurt people or do things in spite, they are just being themselves.
Please just get over it... you won`t change anything, hate it in silence.
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Female 5,139
"Thursday, January 08, 2009 3:58:21 PM
ok, lets make this official. the bible specifically said that if a man would lie with another man as he would with a woman, then he is sinning in the eyes of god. IS THAT NOT EXTRAORDINARLY CLEAR? these ministers are idiots and will probably burn in hell"

It still completly shocks me that today there are people as close minded as this, really?
I mean... you just can`t be serious saying that, i can`t believe it.

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Female 5,139
-bursts through the door, sits down on the comfy fluffy chair in the corner and grabs some popcorn-
SO!...what did i miss?
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Male 734
"Obviously someone who`s quoting something he`s heard from a source who heard from a source and never actually read the text" -Lostinmexico

Wait, isn`t the Bible just a case of people hearing things down the grape vine? It wasn`t written by God, it wasn`t written by Jesus, and much of it wasn`t written by people who were at the events they claim to speak about. I think this alone can be shown in the first line, Genesis 1:1. There is hypocrisy in your statement, which immediately puts your argument into question.

However, even assuming that the Bible is a source of true information (which is a seemingly unlikely assumption, albeit not impossible), you can`t just go around quoting it, because quotes can be taken out of context. If you wish to form a valid argument, you must argue using full excerpts, not just single statements.

And, because I can`t resist a good ad-hominem, you should consider changing your name to "Lostinfantasyland." But this is just a remar

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Male 94
i try to read the novel-posts sometimes, i can usually read about half of the post before i stop caring
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Female 354
sorry to people who write novels on here, no one reads them

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Male 8,302
Well since we`re quoting the Bible here... "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (R3:23). Yes, according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin, but the main point is that EVERYONE has sinned constantly. So condemning gays is as wrong as the guy next door condemning YOU for YOUR sins.
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Female 3
Oh well, they can all thank Him face to face one day. Let`s hope they`re right.
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Male 8,302
> I-A-B, thoughts?

Before I even glanced at the `Comments` column, I thought ... religion... gay... in the one post!? No need to invite comment on that one, try stopping them LOL.

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Male 44
Oh, and by the way, I love the random "fact stating" by our members here like the reference to Josephus and the questionable existance of Christ. Obviously someone who`s quoting something he`s heard from a source who heard from a source and never actually read the text. How about this, everyone who reads this thread is allowed to post their opinions but PLEASE, PLEASE don`t make random assumptions on Bibical and historical texts if, in reality, you don`t know 100% what you`re talking about. Ok, I`m done...let the uneducated, belligerent, foul mouthed people take over the thread again...
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Male 44
I know many people will dispute this but the reality is: The Bible speaks in many places about the dangers of being homosexual. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because it was rampant in those cities. It`s blatanly called an "abomination in the eyes of God". For all of you who dispute the accuracy of the modern Bible. Please do some reading into the history of Greek and Hebrew record keeping and how incredibly careful the Jewish people were to preserve ancient text in it`s original forms. Everyone wants to throw in their two cents but in the end - if you believe the Bible then homosexuality is a sin. Does that mean that we hate these people or turn them away from the doors of the church? Of course not. BUT, as a follower of Christ, we are charged with not candy-coating what we believe. Sadly, these two "pastors" have lost their way and care more about being in the public eye than about speaking the unadulterated truth. Don`t believe me though...I only went to Bible
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Male 451
and jesus, apparently, is a monkey
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Male 451
the bible was a marketing ploy by the mexican division of hallmark to sell candles
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Male 12,365
"Also, the life and death of Jesus is well recorded in non-Christian sources (the historian Josephus for instance)."

No, it isn`t. There are no contempory records. There are a handful of later references, and they are accounts of what some people believed. Also, some sections of the sparse references that Josephus makes to Jesus were added later by Christian clerics.

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Female 328
If you`re gay, you`re open to ridicule, ostracization, bias, blind ignorance, or even violence. They say God places obstacles in your path for you to overcome... so, yeah, I can totally see homosexuality as a gift. People born with severe handicaps are told they are the way God made them, so how should gay people be any different? Of course, being gay should never be considered a "handicap" by any means.
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Male 1,815
Once Oprah says being gay is ok outright, she will change the world`s view.
She is more powerful than any God could hope to be.
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Male 12,365
"There are passages in the new testament that talk about it."

What, like Paul`s letters to the Corinthians? What does that have to do with what Jesus said about anything?

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Male 12,365
"You are aware that there are actual copies of the Gospel of Matthew dated between only 35 and 75 years of Christ`s death? These are COPIES mind you, not originals. And these copies do nothing but confirm the accurate translating of our modern verses. "

You admit yourself that there are no originals left. So you fail to counter the point you were replying to - what you have is some things written a long time afterwards that you *have faith* are copies of something written prior to 110AD.

Secondly, the idea that the translations of modern verses are accurate is simply wrong. Even if you have faith that the oldest extant copies are the same as older alleged written texts (that might not have existed), they don`t confirm accuracy at all. It is, for example, common to "translate" a Greek word that has no known meaning but which is explicitly male-specific as referring to all homosexuals, regardless of sex.

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Male 312
guess you have to attack or defend the church fathers, specifically the matthew, mark, luke and jon, as well as paul. i believe someone tried to interpret john as being jesus` gay lover on account of the "beloved" apostle, therefor supposedly validating homosexuality, but i believe that isn`t even a reference to sexual preference. lol i sound Ms. Frizzle from the magic school bus. say it with a Zing !
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Male 7,933
" Prime what is the chapter and verse for that? We need to share the faith!"

The Book of Italian Bread
Ch. 5 Verse footlong

"For the guts of Christianity, for any topic, I think the key question is "What did Jesus say about it?"

In the case of homosexuality, the answer is nothing."

There are passages in the new testament that talk about it. And Jesus did say something about Racca but the translation isn`t clear yet

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Male 12,365
I see that the alleged 1000 character limit is still fictional, with posts cut off at any point after about 950.

The Corinthian verse hinges on the unknown meaning of a word made up by the author. Had they meant to refer to homosexual men, they would probably have used an appropriate word. They were writing in Greek - it`s not as though it was so unknown for men in ancient Greece to have sex with each other that there wasn`t a word for it in the language.

I can`t find *genuine* clear condemnation of homosexuality in the Christian bible. Lots of rubbish made up later and passed off as the Christian bible...sure, there`s condemnation of homosexuality in that.

For the guts of Christianity, for any topic, I think the key question is "What did Jesus say about it?"

In the case of homosexuality, the answer is nothing.

If it wasn`t important enough for Jesus to mention it, why should Christians attach such importance to it?

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Male 312
i think what angilion is trying to say is that these original verses have been distorted by modern day preachers and publishers to fit a message that is too user friendly. Much of the meaning lost in translation can be twisted to fit any perspective, conservative or liberal.
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Male 502
Doesn`t anyone remember the Subway Miracle? Jesus went into a Subway and got himself and his buddies foot-long samiches for an L spot each... $5 Subway? Truly a miracle... Prime what is the chapter and verse for that? We need to share the faith!
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Male 63
"you are aware that the bible(new testamet) `occured` 2000 years ago. was passed through orature for the following hundred years or so. was finally written down in a foreign language. then translated. destroyed many times and further translated back and forth."

You are aware that there are actual copies of the Gospel of Matthew dated between only 35 and 75 years of Christ`s death? These are COPIES mind you, not originals. And these copies do nothing but confirm the accurate translating of our modern verses.

Also, the life and death of Jesus is well recorded in non-Christian sources (the historian Josephus for instance).


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Male 12,365
mifoxman...extremely inaccurate "translations" of those two verses "kinda say everything", but they have little to do with what was originally written.

Seriously - the usual English versions of those verses are essentially made up. Extra words have been added, words have been removed, sentence structure has been changed, different words have been given the same "translation", the same word has been given different "translations"...every trick in the book has been used to "translate" them to create something to fit a specfic message.

For starters, both those verses are male-specific. So any application of them to women is, to be blunt, a lie.

Then there`s the inconvenient fact that the original Hebrew for Leviticus 18:22 doesn`t make any sense. It could mean a variety of things. One interpretation, for example, is that it forbids men to have sex with each other in a woman`s bed (and only in a woman`s bed).

The Corinthian vers

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Male 502
"there is no physical proof of the existence of jesus and friends"

So, so wrong. Kalitivcus 35: 36 - 47 tells of Jesus` luch at Subway #6 (In Nazareth) with six of the 12 Apostles.

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Male 312
"i respect that its the same here. but you do agree that heterosexuality isnt pre-programmed either? if so i don`t understand [why they`re] considered a sin"

i believe it`s because homosexual sexuality isnt centered around raising a family or having kids. this isn`t to say that gay couples can`t raise children and have a healthy family life. simply that the essence of sexuality surrounding a union of two souls, being strictly taboo in certain religious circles, i seen as a sinful thing. and there`s very little way of converting most of these believers by any other means than pop culture, degrading as it is. thus, at least 51% certain people who are opposed to homosexuality by dictum of their holy book and creed are currently saying: BAD. bold headlines indeed.

i guess the only way is through sex. drugs. and violence. lead on boys!


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Male 1,835
"IF you`re going to be a christian, then FOLLOW THE DARN BIBLE!"

was there anything in the bible about following the bible word for word?
you are aware that the bible(new testamet) `occured` 2000 years ago. was passed through orature for the following hundred years or so. was finally written down in a foreign language. then translated. destroyed many times and further translated back and forth.
you`re copy of the bible is most likely different than what had actually happened had it happened at all. there is no physical proof of the existence of jesus and friends

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Male 502
Cornilius 56:45
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Male 1,835
why does god care that people are homosexual?
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Male 312
locked
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Female 648
No, it`s not. Actually, if you read the bible correctly. (Romans) being gay is a JUDGEMENT from God. :) Just a little correction there.

IF you`re going to be a christian, then FOLLOW THE DARN BIBLE!
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Male 309
hm... just something else to throw into the debate..
a wise teacher once told me that the meaning of life is to reproduce

since the ultimate goal of a species is to procreate, doesn`t being homosexual mean that in the end the individual has failed and ensuring the survival of the species?
ive got nothing against gay people, nor do i think it is wrong btw.

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Male 476
Sixclaws13 has it
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Male 1,853
I want to start an experiment.
4 people, two guys and two girls.
One island, no Bible, or contact with the outside world. Make them believe that they are `the only ones`.

Oh, and give them something to take care of them (robots, monkey butlers, I don`t give a poo).

See what happens.

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Male 544
god gave me the power to rip a ars hole in 1.5 secs and get off in it at the same time.
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Male 79
y the f is oprah there?
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Female 99
and ya know ill take that because the choice to decide isnt really up to us anyway.
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Male 2,313
I don`t think either one is pre-programmed, and I`m not going to comment about if one is a sin because, honestly, I don`t know. But being a sinner isn`t fated, you make your own choices in this life.
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Male 276
it does not matter what your sexual orintatio is God has plans for you. thoguh if you want to get techinical there were only 54 dys in which a man and women could procreate and various other laws that were i judaism, early christianity and the orginal roman catholic chruch
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Female 99
okk well i dont think there any reason for anyone to argue this anymore. i know if i do then ill be providing a completely hypocritical parable on free will. so ill leave it as an agreement to disagree at the very least.
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Male 10,440
haha. You`d have a though time finding anything more convoluted than that.
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Female 99
sorry meant to type why there
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Female 99
i respect that its the same here. but you do agree that heterosexuality isnt pre-programmed either? if so i don`t understand who its considered a sin
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Male 502
"It is like this: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now." - Paul (from the Bible)
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Male 2,313
No, I did not immediately feel attracted to women. I made that choice around first grade.
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Male 63
Firstly, from a purely Christian standpoint, this preacher is in the wrong. A minister is supposed to teach and stand by the Bible which clearly states that homosexuality is a sin.

Secondly, science hasn`t proven that homosexuality is purely genetic. I personally believe that you can be born with natural predilections towards homosexual behaviors, just like you can with addiction to alcohol or aggression. You still have a choice, however.

Thirdly... well there is nothing left to say without getting off topic.

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Male 2,313
God "allows" us to sin because directly disallowing something goes against the entire concept of freewill. And the pre-programming of homosexuality is, if you hadn`t realized, hotly debated.
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Female 99
i figured as much. question, when you were born and i mean minute you got out, did you feel immediatly attracted to women? or do you because thats the way you were brought up? like ok, if the bible hadnt been written which side would you swing from?
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Female 99
my bad primetime, what im trying to say, and bear with me here is that if God can give us the ability to make such a desicion or if we just end up with it somehow then i dont understand how it can be considered such a horrible sin. if comes to some of us as naturally as heterosexuality then how come people consider this a sin?

In other words what dignifies homosexuality as a sin that heterosexuality does not include?

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Female 99
true true. i agree with you on that no doubt. im just saying man is that when God ya know makes you (lol as weird as that sounds) hes got a general idea of whats going down, hence the term everything happens for a reason. i dont see how a loving God could allow a human being to commit something that is considered such a big sin. also this one of those things that comes programmed almost since a lot of people are born gay, why is it that a `stain` is already put upon them?
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Male 2,313
theelgeth

I`m not sure how you got that. We`re still free to make sinful choices; just because we have freewill doesn`t mean we will use it use it wisely.

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Male 336
Leviticus 18:22
1 Corinthians 6:9

kinda says everything right there in those two verses, so it doesn`t make since how a christian pastor could believe that.

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Male 502
"Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of prophecy reveals little! But when the end comes, these special gifts will all disappear." - Paul (from the Bible)

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Male 7,933
"if thats true six claws then why didnt this arguement end 2000 years ago? if thats the case then being gay is 100% not a sin."

What? I read what he said over and over again... I don`t get what you are saying at all.

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Female 99
if thats true six claws then why didnt this arguement end 2000 years ago? if thats the case then being gay is 100% not a sin.
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Male 61
Cheese: yeah we get it. Nice way to avoid being called on your prejudice. Hate the sin, love the sinner. I`ve heard it a hundred Fckng times.

It`s STUPID. BRAINLESS. IDIOTIC. SENSELESS. WORTHLESS. MEANINGLESS. VALUELESS. DRIVEL.

It might have made sense thousands of years ago when they thought that blob of spunk was half of a baby, and that throwing it on the ground was like half of a murder. But we know better now.

Well, most of us, anyway.

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Male 2,313
"If you believe in God you have to know that from the moment you are born you are fated into a pre- determined life. "

Completely untrue. God is allowing me to make my own choices.

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Male 1,666
I think its awesome
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Male 1,086
Wishy-washy Trojan horse more likely.
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Male 2,313
My thoughts are if he truly believes that and isn`t just saying it to be more well-liked, than good for him for voicing his real thoughts. I still think it`s a choice, but I`m not offended by anybody elses choices that don`t affect me.
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Female 99
to deviros- did God write the bible?

you have to look at it from both perspectives. and seeing from both sides I come to the same conclusion; that being gay is a gift. From a non-religious perspective usually there is nothing wrong with being gay, unless your homophobic. hence no issue with being homosexual.
If you believe in God you have to know that from the moment you are born you are fated into a pre- determined life. being Gay is a part of that determination. Whether some people look as it as a burden or as a gift is up to them.
If you still think it was not set by God then consider this; It woudldnt be the first time God has thrown strife into the mix of humanity. Consider Original Sin the reason humans die today.
Also consider what Jesus was when he was alive In the time of the Romans, he was a Jew; one to get segregated against, and this added to Jesus` sacrifice to us. Is being a Jew that is prejudiced against that much different from being gay and prejudiced agai

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Male 207
Love is Love is Love
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Male 394
I repeat, being gay isn`t a sin, having sex with a the same gender is.
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Male 7,933
" that you believe in loving all people."

...uh... yeah. Thats not the debate. Its whether its a sin or not, not whether we should love them

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Male 272
i dont think that god gave us set design, people evolve, thats why were beautiful.
i`m not gay, but my boyfriend is
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Male 45
Their entire argument is based on whether or not being gay is Nature or Nurture. If you do believe people are born gay. And you believe that God is an all loving all powerful god. Then it`s only makes sense (I know, it`s religion, nothing really makes sense) that you believe in loving all people.

THAT being said. I believe Oprah is completely willing to further her own schedule by only putting guests on that will endorse that vision. And while the end may be just. The means are not.

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Male 535
And, at the risk of getting insulted, and starting a flame war - I refute the whole thing with this simple statement:

1Corinthians 6:9

Oh, and before anyone says ANYTHING, yes, i see how the chapter and passage numbers could be "taken the wrong way."

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Male 203
There are some odd statistics out there on this, for example, if a mother has the chances of a 3rd son being born gay are a third greater than average, and this increases by a third every further son. There is an overcompensation of oestrogen in the uterus, as the woman learns immunodefences against the foreigner, bein her baby and dat. Or ting. Promise.
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Male 7,933
"a straight male has two chromosomes: XY
a straight female has two chromosomes: XX
a gay male has two chromosomes: XY
a gay female has two chromosomes: XX"

there are several X`s and Y`s. The first two just decide gender. Let me look for the thing that book said I`ll get back to you on that.

ok this book is confusing me but this is what I sort of picked up. It wasnt that there are more X`s or Y`s but that a certain region of that is missing. and something about gay men not receiving andrenogen at a certain time

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Male 203
Haha, I hadn`t even read the chromosome nonsense, I assumed it would have been over my head, but please, it`s nothing to do with that, it`s the chromosomal coding in the DNA itself, nucleotides, base pairing, biology bores me now. GOD IS DEAD.
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Male 502
"If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn`t love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal." - Paul
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Female 15,763
Why does it matter if homosexuality is a choice? WHY!? Does it matter if Bob likes brunettes, or Suzy likes blonds? NO. Who a person likes and the characteristics that they are a attracted to should not be this big of a deal.
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Male 1,220
"Now there is one important thing to remember. The main scientific studies i`ve read on it are that a male lacks sufficient Y chromosomes (they have XYY instead of XYYY) and that their brain structures are a certain way."

sorry, but that`s very incorrect.

a straight male has two chromosomes: XY
a straight female has two chromosomes: XX
a gay male has two chromosomes: XY
a gay female has two chromosomes: XX

the genetic mutations that occur when there is an abnormal amount of sex chromosomes are:
Turner`s syndrome (a female has one X)
metafemales (a female gets three X`s)
Klinefelter syndrome (a male has more than one X)
and XYY syndrome ( a male gets an extra Y)

absolutely none of these result in homosexuality

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Male 7,933
I forgot entirely how it was but it the book (which I hate btw, it was annoying and I dont appreciate being called a "lunch-chaser") talked about that.

And even if, it seems like to much of a mention is placed on the natural vs. choice.

The Bible says that by nature we are sinners (notice the we).

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Male 203
Yes, but it is still not a disorder genetically, and besides, this is by no means the only way someone can be gay. This would make no allowances for any kind of bisexuality.
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Male 502
Not really a religious debate.. more like an intervention to help some people love themselves for who they are, and not hate on others. It is all about love.
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Male 2,125
Cool a religious debate! I`ll go get the popcorn! =D
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Male 502
"Lots of sexual identity insecurity in this forum. Hmm"

oh wait I said that already.

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Male 9,305
I make people laugh. It makes them happy, it makes me happy. For that, I think I`m doing a good job at this "life" thing.
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Male 7,933
paddy, isnt blonde a hair a combination of recessive genes instead of a lack of genes?
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Male 524
I saw the part of this episode before this on tv the other day. I didn`t stick around to watch it though. To me, being an atheist, it doesn`t matter what gay people do. I`m not into that, but it doesn`t matter to me if other people are. Who are we to judge what others should and shouldn`t do anyways. I wouldn`t mind knowing someone who`s gay, so long as they can understand that i`m not.
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Male 203
Primetime, it would no more be a disease than having blonde hair would be.
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Male 2,582
This is such a tired topic.
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Male 502
In the bible, as I interpret it, (everyone does) Jesus had a H-on for one of the Apsotles... "The one who Jesus loved."John, I think. Jesus, God himself never said anything about homosexuality.
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Male 394
Being Gay isn`t a sin, having sex with the same gender is. Lol, common misconception.
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Male 7,933
"1.homosexuality is not a choice. NO scientific study has proven otherwise. In fact, all scientific inquiry on the matter points to this fact."

Now there is one important thing to remember. The main scientific studies i`ve read on it are that a male lacks sufficient Y chromosomes (they have XYY instead of XYYY) and that their brain structures are a certain way.

That leaves two problems. In the first case it would be a disease that you are describing.
In the second case, people forget that your neuron connections arent developed when your young. Your brain changes until you are 24. The brain you are bron with is not the same brain you have later on.

And lets say that it is natural. The Bible also says that its one man and one woman. Yet biology tells us that Men are naturally polygamist. I don`t see as many people saying that married men should sleep around

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Male 312
"And WTF is with that pastor? The Bible is clear that homosexuality is wrong to Yahweh... and that they should be killed. They seem to forget the second part more often than the first.

"God is love" my a$$. And just for s#*ts and giggles... the Bible is total b^ll$h*t."

pooptart i do believe you have contradicted yourself. how can the bible be clear about anything if its "total b^ll$h*t"?

trp712 got it right: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. the bible also says judge not lest ye be judged. so basically, mind your own damn business and if at all possible help out those who are in need, whether they be gay, straight or a-sexual.

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Male 1,228
lol @ `Jesus`. Funnies not intended.
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Male 502
New or Old, they still just made it up.
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Male 1,228
Jesus. I know that Atheists spreading their word is annoying, but "JUST ENJOY LIFE" is such a good message compared to all of this crap.

Stop arguing.

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Male 203
There`s probably no god, sexual orientation is predominantly genetic. This is science.

God definitely exists, he made you, but f*cked up, so now pay for it b*tch. This is religion.

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Male 7,933
Ok here is a little bit of bible stuff so you can guys can understand some points.

First of a lot of the things in the Old Testament are "Mosaic Law" or law that was a covenant between Moses and God.
In Matt ...something... it says that all the things in the Bible are to be followed until heaven and earth pass away. That was considered the death of Jesus. So christians aren`t bound to mosaic law. Thats why I can eat pork.

"Because of this [idolatry], God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

That is in the new testament and what is normally the basis for believing homosexuality is a sin

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Male 4,012
ThatWasFunny, not everyone thinks having kids is a good thing. :)

Pooptart, the test is for the people, not for God. If you do good stuff and leave out the bad, you go to heaven and if you don`t it`s hell.

God also doesn`t set us up as good or bad, we`re the ones making the decision. The concept of fate is, from my own perspective, is more for the benefit of `accepting the things you cannot change` like death than `oh you`re fated to be be a rapist, have gay sex, etc`.

Disclaimer: These are my own views on the matter, and it may conflict with others sharing similar views. Religion is a personal matter anyway.

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Male 1,220
here are some facts:
1.homosexuality is not a choice. NO scientific study has proven otherwise. In fact, all scientific inquiry on the matter points to this fact.

2. According to the bible: God created us all, God loves us all.

3. Homosexuality, according to the bible, is a sin.

And here is my question: Because being homosexual is biological, then GOD must have created them that way. Why would a God who loves all of his creations create a person as a sinner? Sinners go to hell right? Then why would GOD create someone if he KNEW they were going to go to hell anyway?

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Male 502
Lots of sexual identity insecurity in this forum. Hmm
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Male 41
Little insecure about yourself Braber?
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Male 207
**"umm yea it does it harms the people that they hit on I know from experance (damn kid from my school"**

Get over your self. I`m flattered whenever someone hits on me.

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Male 502
"Not being able to have kids of your own is a gift from god? may I ask how?"

Um... I have a friend who is gay and has two daughters... made the way nature makes things happen.

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Male 153
[qoute]Being gay harms no one[/qoute] umm yea it does it harms the people that they hit on I know from experance (damn kid from my school)
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Male 701
Not being able to have kids of your own is a gift from god? may I ask how?
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Male 123
Sorry for the double-posting, I don`t know what happened.

Fancylad, don`t wait for the best when you die, try to live the best while you`re still here. :)

Cheers!

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Male 2,440
Pabasa, a test implies that an outcome is wanting to be known. Why would god test anyone if he has complete power and knows what exactly is going to happen anyway? It`s not like god is like "Hmmm, I wonder who he`ll do if I make `em gay?"
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Male 123
But Fancylad, like Davymid reminded, at the same book that this "rule" appears, you can also find that picking up sticks on sunday is even worse. Homossexuals would burn in hell, but the bible don`t demand their death like it does with the sunday-stick-pickers.

Why take one rule and discard the other? Why interpret and contextualize one and not the other?

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Male 639
Christianity isn`t rational. You shouldn`t try and rationalise fairy tales because they are fairy tales.

I`m not doubting the possibility of a God existing, but we really shouldn`t base our whole belief system on the first religious text we read.

Anyway more to the point, being Gay isn`t wrong because there is not absolute concept of wrong and right. It`s all cultural and relative. The Romans saw nothing wrong with being gay but religious teachings are trying to persuade us otherwise.

The important thing is for everyone to strive to be happy. We only live once so enjoy it. Being gay harms no one, so be happily gay if your gay.

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Male 4,012
Pooptart: I don`t see the connection between `tests` and `being all-knowing and all-powerful`.

Is it ok for you to clarify what you mean by that, before I go off ranting in a direction that`s not the same as yours?

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Male 2,238
everyone talking about the bible should realise that it is written by man, and therefore not perfect.

The overriding "rule" in life is "treat thy neighbour as you would wish to be treated."

furthermore i believe that the quote is actually, "God hates that (homosexuality)."

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Male 84
The part of the bible in question is Leviticus. It also calls for gathering the entire village to stone your own Mother to death if she wears clothes made of two types of thread.
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Male 20,830
Winston, that`s why I sort of verbally threw up my arms when I read the sticks on Sunday thing.

You can not win with the Bible--it`s designed to confuse. And God is always angry and he`s always happy.

I`m going to break out the liquor in my desk and hope for the best when I die.

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Male 2,440
Agreed ilfg.
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Male 336
eh, if "the church" or the bible says anything is inherently wrong or a sin, it`s probably okay for you to do it.

on the other hand, if they tell you you ought to do something, i`d advise stepping back and thinking about it first.

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Male 502
I am smart enough to whether or not the is a God. But if there is, I am pretty sure he has bigger fish to fry than boys liking boys, girls liking boys etc.
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Male 2,440
Pabasa, why the hell would a god "test" people assuming this god is all-knowing and all-powerful?
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Male 123
But Fancylad, like Davymid reminded, at the same book that this "rule" appears, you can also find that picking up sticks on sunday is even worse. Homossexuals would burn in hell, but the bible don`t demand their death like it does with the sunday-stick-pickers.

Why take one rule and discard the other? Why interpret and contextualize one and not the other?

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Male 4,012
As a sufficiently religious person, believing in God and His rewards and punishments, I still believe that being gay is a sin. I don`t see it as a gift per se, but more of a test.

It`s a test of your devotion to leave things which are wrong and do things that are good.

Though maybe if I pass the test, and is rewarded for it, then I guess it is a gift.

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Male 20,830
OK, i`m reading the rest of the posts. i think maybe religion should take a break for a while.
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Male 20,830
reidcook1000 makes a point.

And I`m not taking sides, but if you breakdown the Bible that these pastors preach from, there`s somewhere in there that says "a man laying down with another man" is wrong or something.

although there are some religions that believe in the old testament and not the new and vice versa.

maybe that`s what they`re doing.

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Male 123
Thanks, AGit!

;)

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Male 20,830
Wouldn`t everything be a gift from God though? I mean, He`s God.
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Male 502
"ElDavo, 327...but I`m mildly offended by your bordeline homophobia. What gay people do you know that never shut up about describing the intricate details of gay butt-sex and are always trying to get you involved? Are you afraid you might like it?"

Davy, nice use of homophobia in its true sense.... but do you think it it is really "Borderline?"

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Male 2,440
Oprah can f*uck right off. She said spirituality was necessary for a happy life. Well, I`m not spiritual in the slightest and I`m a fairly happy person.

And WTF is with that pastor? The Bible is clear that homosexuality is wrong to Yahweh... and that they should be killed. They seem to forget the second part more often than the first.

"God is love" my a$$. And just for s#*ts and giggles... the Bible is total b^ll$h*t.

Have a nice day. : D

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Male 12,138
vv "ok, lets make this official. the bible specifically said that if a man would lie with another man as he would with a woman, then he is sinning in the eyes of god. IS THAT NOT EXTRAORDINARLY CLEAR? these ministers are idiots and will probably burn in hell"

reidcook, in the same book of the bible, it also says that people who gather sticks on a sunday should be put to death. Do you also agree with that? Surely this deserves a little bit of historical leeway given the times it was written in. After all, didn`t Jesus preach about love and acceptance?

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Mohandas Gandhi

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Male 778
I say this Pastor is the return of christ. He`s the only pastor who has made sense on the issues of homosexuality in today`s society. Good for him to stand up for them. GOOD FOR HIM!
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Male 123
In my religion, firstpost freaks occupy the innermost circle of Hell. :P
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Male 3,482
Lol, I love what Opera said at the end.

"Okay were still dealing with being gay... is... a gift... It`s a gift..."

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Male 889
Sedrick looks like that black guy from True Blood who also likes to putt from the rough
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Male 995
Winston`s somewhat witty remark pretty much sums it up.
Of course, I`m sorry for davy, `cos that means that the bloody firstposters are also a gift from god, so you may have to lift the ban on eldavo.
On the other hand, eldavo has made it quite clear that he lacks brain cells, so never mind...
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Male 123
"ok, lets make this official. the bible specifically said that if a man would lie with another man as he would with a woman, then he is sinning in the eyes of god. IS THAT NOT EXTRAORDINARLY CLEAR? these ministers are idiots and will probably burn in hell"

What should be clear is that spirituality is one thing and the bible is another thing. Some people use the bible to guide their spirituality, some use other books and others no book at all.

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Male 12,138
vv "Meh, I don`t care what the church says about it. I don`t care if a person is gay, just don`t describe anything about it to me or try to get me involved.

...also, first."

ElDavo, 327 posts, member for nearly two years. Come on, you should know better than "first" posting. I`d let it go, but I`m mildly offended by your bordeline homophobia. What gay people do you know that never shut up about describing the intricate details of gay butt-sex and are always trying to get you involved? Are you afraid you might like it?

Have a 24-hour ban for the "first"- it`ll give you some time to think about how to come out to your parents that you`re secretly gayer than Brokeback Mountain`s make-up artist.

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Male 483
well its good that they are accepting homosexuality, but I`m not sure I agree with the spirituality concept they were discussing. But hey I`m not spiritual in any way, so it`s a difficult concept for me to grasp in the first place
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Male 381
ok, lets make this official. the bible specifically said that if a man would lie with another man as he would with a woman, then he is sinning in the eyes of god. IS THAT NOT EXTRAORDINARLY CLEAR? these ministers are idiots and will probably burn in hell
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Female 354
I watched this the other day on TV, It made me so happy and hopeful that maybe someday soon in the future people will just accept the fact that it doesn`t matter what sex you are, you can love whom ever you want to love. LOVE is LOVE.
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Male 123
Since God created everything, everything is a gift from God, even that rash in your crotch.
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Male 12,138
What`s that old familiar smell I detect? Is it...smoke? Burning? Hold on, I know this one... Fire, definitely fire. FLAMES! THAT`S IT! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!
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Male 1,289
Hmm fine with me!
I don`t have a problem with it!
Never heard this perspective though
I`m not a religious person
People can believe what they want!
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Male 1,853
Tell this to Westboro Church.
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Male 2,148
Meh, I don`t care what the church says about it. I don`t care if a person is gay, just don`t describe anything about it to me or try to get me involved.

...also, first.

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Male 20,830
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