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I see Iraq not as a failed mission but currently incomplete. Setting up a forward position in a hotbox like the ME has great strategic value. And of course we`d want to set up a friendly (democratic) government so they let us build bases.
People can criminalize Bush for invading without WMDs and purely for his oil interests, the latter I see as quite unfounded. But if our presence in Iraq helps preempt a problem that could rage out of control, i.e. Israel and Iran over nukes, he may be written in the history texts as a great President.
That`s crap, btw..
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Do you support adultery, and sex outside marriage? (I wont do homosexuality since that is another debate)"
In order to properly play Devil`s advocate, your questions should have some relevance to my line of argument. Those don`t, because *objecting to torturing people to death for something does not in any way imply support for that something.*
I am going to emphasise that again, because it`s a very important point and left unchecked will completely sidetrack my original post.
I am opposed to torturing people, and even more opposed to torturing people to death, for adultery, sex outside marriage and homosexuality. Or anything else, but those are important in this context because Islam *requires* torture and slaughter for those things. The most "moderate" Muslim might argue that "only" torturing and maiming is required, something which "only" might kill the victim.
This is the truth - check it f
I stumbled across a passage not long ago. Basically it says what any cleric will tell you, interpretation should be left for those that are learned…or something oif the like.
Of course there is many a corrupt cleric in Islam…most.
Murphy, I think I may have stumbled across that book. I’ll be sure to read it
Also, I have stated in the past that Christianity was wrong for editing their Bible time and time again. I think I should restate this by saying that not to do so is wrong as well.
There was a time when the Middle East was filled with inspiration and ideas, but now only ruins remain.
There are things like this that do happen, Christian groups near the middle east do bombings, those Soviet athiests have probably done bombings as well, and for the Jews, read the Old Testament.
No matter where you look, there will always be corruption and extremism.
I think it`s indicative of the corrupted view extremism takes on any philosophy in general.It`s not all about religion, it never is, even things like the crusades had very large social and economic factors. The religion was more of an excuse for most the crusades.
"ALL religion is inherently flawed."
As long as we don`t know everything, anything we believe in can be flawed. cept maybe math.
The point is that these people are going around murdering and justifying it in the name of their holy texts
I beg to differ. Last time I checked, there weren`t a lot of radical groups of Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. going around bombing buildings, shooting up public places and killing children.
While I`m not doubting that there are many peaceful Muslims out there (I know a few personally), the religion is inherently flawed in the freedom it gives its followers to resort to violence.
Do you support adultery, and sex outside marriage? (I wont do homosexuality since that is another debate)
Is there a Muslim here who will voice an objection to prolonged bloody torture by whipping, perhaps to death, of people who have done these things?
i) Adulteryii) Sex outside of marriageiii) Homosexual sex.
It`s a trick question - Muslims are *required* to support it. It`s a command from God, if you`re a Muslim. 100 lashes, no mercy. Direct order from God, right there in the Qu`ran. Absolutely mandatory, no objection allowed.
Moderate? If you have the stomach for it, you can see videos of this torture online. It is not moderate by any sane definition of the word.
Muslims can`t really cherry-pick from the Qu`ran, because it`s an article of faith that it is literally the word of God.
"We (Allah) will show you (mankind) Our signs/patterns in the horizons/universe and in yourselves until you are convinced that the revelation is the truth."[Holy Quran 41:53]
But killing children for getting an education, in fact killing anyone for any reason other than self defense and the defense of your family, is wretched. They want to teach only islamic subjects, well as a matter of fact, it was a Muslim that invented Algebra, Muslims named the stars, advanced "western" medicine, chemistry, physics, geology, etc... Muslims pretty much made all the scientific advances in the world from the 8th to the 13th centuries.However, I think that it is more an attack on them because they are more tolerant of the western world, not because they are being educated. But they may argue that education leads people to want equality, and to that, they are right.
The reason is that for a son to go on jihad (jihad can mean anything, from going to college, to going to war), he must get his mother`s permission. If the mother has a general education, she is more likely to prevent her son from going on a violent jihad. Once the violent extremism becomes unpopular, these areas should only be known for the friendly locals, not the birthplace of suicide bombers.
This man spoke at my school once, and wrote about his experience in the book "Three Cups of Tea". You can look up summaries of the book or check wikipedia if you don`t want to read the whole book.
Sorry but you are wrong. Alexandria was conqured before the Muslims had even created a coherent civilization. In fact, the original Great Library was probably accidentally torched by Julius Ceasar. They were still basically primatives. But in the later centuries as they created a true empire art, literature, science, and architecture were pionnered by them while Europe was basically the third world. Then they fell. Everything that was preserved of Aristotle and other greek philosophers fell into western hands thanks to Muslims like Avincinna and Averroes. Oh, and they invented algebra to boot.
This goes for any "culture" which spreads such absolute rubbish.
Thank God my religion is science.
what are you talking about opie? christian evangelicals love to shoot guns, almost as much as they love to hate gays.
anywho, this is what happens when you let people live in the dark ages, they do stupid drating things
I agree that Iraq is worse than the US on the crime rate, but give the Country some time to get back on their feet. I was at the initial push into the Country, and a majority of the Iraqi`s were glad that Saddam is no longer in power. The man was a tyrant. As their country transitions, you will see those numbers come down. Once we leave, that country will have to stand on their own.
And as far as Africa goes, a lot of the deaths are indeed due to warlords killing off hundreds of thousands of people with bullets. They also kill people with the food supply, and controlling that food supply. Those deaths are just as bad as putting a gun to someones head and pulling the trigger, if not worse.
and cites this source for the body count:http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/nu...
Some of the ethnic cleansing in Africa may cause more deaths, but either there are no reliable body counts being taken or most of the deaths are only indirectly the result of violence, e.g. people dying from hunger, thirst, or disease, which isn`t really homicide. The point I wanted to make is Iraq is a lot worse than the U.S., and radical Muslims are almost exclusively to blame, although coalition forces have also murdered their (much smaller) share of civilians.
You might want to look at Africa a bit closer, because I am pretty sure the ethnic cleansing (aka murder) there is much worse than Iraq.
That`s all I have to say.
I call B.S.
Nice try on the history lesson. What you speak of I think is Alexandria. But, no... an Islamic extremist ordered that extremely far advanced library (etc.) destroyed along with all the knowledge in it. Thus... it is purely Islamic extremism that needs to be wiped out as quick as it is found.
I have two good friends who are both Muslim and when I`ve asked them about their religion, they`ve told me a bit about it. Definitely can say it`s not for me.
The whole killing kids thing is crazy. Seriously, if you start to kill off kids because they go to school, your going to have a very uneducated country.
We don`t murder children because they want to go to school
But indeed, even if a debate goes in circles some good can come out of it. And I can`t help myself, but its fun.
But I fear I`ve wasted too much time on this topic. I need to write a term paper and get started programming a Pacman clone. So if anymore replies come from my arguments I won`t be able to reply,refute,spout nonsense, etc.
Good night and good luck all!
Then you take a population of say, oh I don`t know, quadruple that, and stereotype them based on 1/5th of the incidents.
Long story short:Americans are mostly Murderers = 0.005% accurate. Muslims are mostly Terrorists = 0.00025% accurate. Americans are wheelchair-bound black women = 0.01% accurate.
It`s *that* ridiculous.
Seriously,gain some perspective.
But there`s the fundamental difference between us. You see no Iraq benefit due to your direct experience and loss. I see benefit because of historical examples.
The unbreakable stalemate. So really, everything we`ve wrote is pretty much worthless. Heh, but isn`t that really the whole point of debate?
And amaq, I don`t overtly support American Imperialism. I kinda feel like I`m in the Teddy Roosevelt mold, imperialism to the degree that its main use is militarily. Despite what the media might portray it to be, American military presence really doesn`t disrupt a nations sovereignty. Nations of note are Germany and Japan, I`m pretty sure they`re glad we stayed after WWII. And those positions benefited U.S. interests in the Cold War. Win-Win!
So yeah, get imperial military holdings in countries, specifically those that want it. And if the situation calls for it, invade and overthrow, ala Iraq.
But I understand your sentiments Swiss, really. And I`m sorry I keep pointing back to history, but Germans were peeved that other European nations were impeding their self-determination. I`m guessing German citizens would feel that a 1937-1938 invasion to overthrow Hitler would have not been Great Britain or France`s problem either. But suffering such criticism likely would have spared the Earth from WWII.
Now, every situation in the world does not require American intervention, let alone military, that`s easy to see. But certain events do call for it and many don`t. I`m personally led to believe the Iraq invasion was justified but I could be wrong, thats the risk I run.
Petrol Bombing at Catholic SchoolSchool bus attacked in Northern IrelandSchoolkids stoned in Northern IrelandNursery School Firebombed in NA
All found while trying to look up the one where riot police were called in to stop the HUNDREDS of common folk pelting stones at schoolchildren.
oops, yeah thats what i meant
No it was NATO that Georgia wanted to join.
the un got involved in that situation more than any individual country, georgia wants to join the un and that has a lot to do with russia`s aggressive stance with them.
Actually Muslims used to be the most advanced civilization on Earth. With foundations on Persia and links to China and Greece the Middle East was a hotbed of culture. In fact, the Greek philosophers that were redisovered in the Renissance were done so thanks to Muslim scholars who preserved them while Europe slid into darkness and barbarism. But then they pissed off the Mongols who pretty much destroyed them and they haven`t been able to rebuild since.
Islam is the only religion where there is no debating whether or not their holy texts give them the right to act with the judgment of God.
the only people that ever use that above sentence are American , no one thinks that , unfortunately we all think that myour trying to run the world and it really really pisses us off , it really does ( dont mean to flame ) The Russia Vs Georigia issue , Theres the USA " oh if you dont back off Russia were gonna send in our forces" , WHY STAY OUT OF IT AMERICA IT`S NOT YOUR PROBLEM ARGHHHh!!!!
so you support american imperialism. i have mixed feelings about our involvement in the middle east, but i realize that we are there whether we like it or not so must continue to deal with the situations like we have been and hopefully the middle east will be better off because of it, but i definitely do not support any type of american imperialism.
You need to understand that Islam itself isn`t hateful...
It`s that we need to make war on the TERRORISTS, not the 1 BILLION PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE ISLAM. Muslims hate terrorists every bit as much as us, if not more so. Only about 0.1% of Muslims are terrorists, so why are you guys saying F*** Islam? There are atheist, jewish, and christian terrorists as well you know (though far less).
Nasty little creatures. I simply do not classify these things as humans.
F*ck Islam and f*ck all other dogmatic beliefs.
my bad, i thought you were implying it, i`ve heard people say it on this site before and its just not true.
pacifism doesn`t really help matters either, it takes balls to stand up and defend the innocent, to bad there aren`t many of us left who have a pair.
how? they are trying to educate their people and these extremists are killing them because they distrust education. how are we a cause of this situation?
I agree, we should video tape them getting their heads sawed off and send it to their families like they do to us
Obviously you took it personally, so I`m sorry about that, it wasn`t intended. I admit I can be too zealous at times concerning historical accuracies. Heh, but I really don`t find myself stopping anytime in the future.
these are the people we are fighting in afghanistan."
Yeah, and this is a perfect example of how our violence in the area isn`t really helping matters.
I never suggested anything about the destruction of Communism Murray and from my quoted comment above I said you were correct on that comment.
Also, I did not use Wikipedia in my argument. I am minoring in History with a concentration in military history. Currently, I`m taking American Military History at Penn State with Dr. Carol Reardon, a foremost expert in the field. It also happens that we are going over Vietnam at this point in the semester, which would explain why I could recall a few of the specific names and places, usually I would need a source.
But my word will only go as far as it can on teh nets. If you want to believe I Wiki everything fine, but what I typed is the truth.
Really?? How many other "religions" do you see murdering people for no reason??
Perhaps you should crack open a history book? Or a newspaper? People have been dying for millennia in the name of religion. And of course everyone thinks that their religion is the "right" one. Need a more modern example? Off the top of my head. Christian pro-lifers bombing a clinic right here in Atlanta extreme enough? Or does that not qualify?
(Army of God)
and what religion did hitler stand behind to promote the holocaust?
I`m sure the genocide during world war 2 had nothing to do with religion.These are stupid extremists that use religion as an excuse for everything. We should find every single one and shoot`em down.
these are the people we are fighting in afghanistan.
Really?? How many other "religions" do you see murdering people for no reason??
They should be put in prison and ass raped on an hourly basis and then have the quran shoved up their bleeding non-nice individuals.
In islam it is compulsary to learn- not only about islam, but whatever education is available to you
Correction: Read: the crusades objective was to prevent the spread of islam
I said prevent the spread, not destroy, thats a difeerent kettl of fish- read the coment b4 u try to b cleva
and thanku dakkar, you have learnified me in the vietnam war i grovel at your knowledge, or supreme command of wiki
as a member of the military you should respect that kind of outlook about what you are fighting for."
No disrepect intended i just like comments like that becuase it just looks so out of place , sorry that that gave off the wrong message
They had originally been warring against the French occupation in Indochina, and it came to a head in Dien Bien Phu. The French called for U.S. intervention but the order was never given and, I believe Eisenhower pressed the French to vie for peace.
Upon the creation of S. Vietnam, the U.S. was present strictly in an advisory role. We were still in this role when the Vietcong rose up in S. Vietnam and eventually the N. Vietnamese Army invaded. It wasn`t until the mid 60`s that Lyndon B. Johnson deployed U.S. troops to fight with the S. Vietnamese forces against the previously aggressive Vietcong and N. Vietnamese armies.
They ain`t all bad, only a very few - and they`re really bad.
the USA invaded vietnam in the 1950`s to prevent the spread of communism this sparked the (until then) peaceful vietnamese into a guerilla army
the crusades objective was to prevent the spread of islam (as well as capturing the holy land etc.) if the 9 crusades over 200 years wasn`t enough to spark islam into violence the spanish reconquista, the arab revolt and the iranian revolt should be enough, not to mention how they`ve been treated in the mid 20th, but i wont go into that
at the end of the day all this (what i wrote) is an immeasureably small percentage of the root of the problem
thats why th word muslim translated to "one who submits (to god)"
as a member of the military you should respect that kind of outlook about what you are fighting for.
unfotunatly due to modern media and freedom of speech they`re having a harder time than christianity did
As long as there are clashes in fundamental beliefs, there will be violence. And if we want a free world, there will be clashes in fundamental beliefs. Now its always tough to say which side is "right" and which is "wrong" and it is never that black and white. But we now see what complacency and "peace at all costs" did to the world in 1939. The best example of a truly "evil" side brought forth the deadliest war in human history because the "good" side truly believed peace could thrive in a dangerous world.
Hitler and his Blitzkrieg proved once and for all that one of the greatest allies of terrible violence is the pursuit of world peace.
War begets war. Peace begets greater war.
I eagerly await the day when humanity matures enough to lay violence, willful ignorance and bigotry behind them.
these are the people we`re fighting in afghanistan
That kind of implies that these tactics are new. They aren`t. Fanatics driven to surpress education as of means of controlling populations have been brutally punishing those who attempt to arm themselves with knowledge for longer than any of us have been alive.
Western complacency isn`t helping matters much.
And while in principle they match up with many Christians who misinterpret teachings, they do so in a much more violent sense. Hell, even the warped KKK isn`t terribly violent anymore, still as bigoted and ignorant as ever, but not as violent.
The worst thing is, these people can`t be ignored. We can`t submit after a cartoon of their prophet surfaces with a bomb in his turban. They prey on weakness and fear, so we must meet that with resolute response. These twisted Muslims, again I`ll repeat they are a minority, want the entire world to submit to Islam and will do so in a brutal fashion. With such an enemy, the only option is to meet that with an equivalent or greater force. I`ll always choose the latter.
That`s all I have to say...
Please don`t let these unintelligent people make you believe that all Muslims are wrong. I`m not ignorant, I hope you`re not either.
Wrong. Islam is a religion of obedience. The very word "islam" means either "obedience" or "submission" (which, of course, includes obedience).
You get peace only if you submit and are utterly obedient. Like a bully leaving you alone because you grovel to them, acknowledging them as your master.
Even "moderate" Muslims support the torture of those who are disobedient - it`s absolutely required. 100 lashes in a punishment whipping without mercy - right there in the Koran, a direct command from God, therefore something every Muslim is required to support.
Because killing people that doesn`t think the same way as you do works. Oh, wait!
"Careful - you say anything bad about Islam and someone will call you a racist. And those wonderful Muslims will try and kill you."
Generalize some more, will you?
Keep saying that. Once everyone believes it, maybe then it`ll become true.
Academia has always had to put up with religious nonsense - Islam is just being a bit more forward about it, killing kids. It`s not Islam`s fault, though; it`s the reluctance to criticize, in any form, organized religion that created the air bubble for a really wretched system to spring up and take offense to any damned thing it can, whether it be women`s rights, education, even walking your dog in the park. Lunatics.
Yes, yes, not all Muslims are terrorists. I get it. But come on, look at what the rank and file muslims from the middle east want, not the westernized Muslims.