$7.5 Trillion If You Can Prove Evolution

Submitted by: littlemissqt 9 years ago in Science
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2008/10/palaeontologists-this-could-be.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=specrt10_head_Easy%20money?

Turkish creationist Adnan Oktar offered $7.5 trillion to anyone who produces a single fossil demonstrating evolution.
There are 188 comments:
Male 2,553
I Love listening to I-A-B rants XD
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Male 2,605
"Definition of evolution.. I see nothing about common ancestry."

A good, working definition of evolution, to be sure. Common ancestry doesn`t follow from the definition, but it is evident nonetheless. The definition you supplied is neutral on that area because it`s entirely possible that something can evolve along a single line; it`s just not probable. So as not to exclude that improbable possibility, common ancestry isn`t directly noted. If you wish I could supply an alternate definition.

Going by logic, common ancestry sufficiently implies evolution, but evolution does not necessarily imply common ancestry.

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Male 5,620
Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Actually zira, it doesn`t state what he used to create.. doesn`t specifically say nothing, something, or anything. You can take that as nothing, but you really don`t have anything to back up that claim... unless you are aware of a verse I am not?

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Male 5,620
In biology, evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. Genes that are passed on to an organism`s offspring produce the inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. Mutations in genes can produce new or altered traits in individuals, resulting in the appearance of heritable differences between organisms. New traits may also arise from the transfer of genes between populations, as in migration, or between species, in horizontal gene transfer. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are produced by genetic recombination, which can increase the variation in traits between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population.

Definition of evolution.. I see nothing about common ancestry.

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Male 418
Wow, you guys are pretty awesome. Glad you got that out of the way while i was hanging out with my friends
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Female 2,228
For the record, my articles are not a gotcha method of arguing. I`d rather not type out all that stuff b/c frankly it is not easy to readily replicate.

You said you believed in evolution, but not Common Ancestry. Common Ancestry is part of evolution. It states that all life at one point or another had a common ancestor and as life diversified and speciated we got the evolutionary tree of life. Families of species, and groups of animals & plants. Reproductive families. That sort of thing. I was flabbergasted at how you did not get this.

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Male 2,313
Sadly I have to be off. It`s been nice (if extremely frustrating) debating with you. I`ll see you on the next religious post.
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Male 2,313
And yet, after everything I say, you either link a page saying the same thing or quote that page and then say, "Look at this! Ha!" when it is agreeing with me. I am just trying to get an idea of what point we are arguing about now.
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Female 2,228
*Rubs temples to rid self of throbbing pain*
YES. THANK YOU CAPTAIN OBVIOUS.
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Male 2,313
F*cking A! This whole time I keep saying that evolution and religion can are not exclusive of each other! This whole f*cking debate that`s been my point!
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Female 2,228
Many prominent religious professionals, (The Pope ect.) believe in and support evolution.
*As per the article. Check it out.
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Male 2,313
What are these "ugly little facts"? I think we are more or less agreeing on things, but in a rather hostile way. We both agree that religion and evolution can and do coexist (much like the human and the fish). We both agree that abuse of religion is a terrible, yet common thing.
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Female 2,228
Read the article Dillweed. We`ll start slowly...
SEE SPOT RUN...
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Female 2,228
And brushing away my reasoning with, "you make no sense" is not going to make all my ugly little facts go away.
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Female 2,228
Most religious people do believe in evolution.
That`s the whole point of the article I provided.
Can you read?
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Male 2,313
Have I not said this before? I believe in evolution. I am not an atheist. Why would you link a page claiming that most religious people don`t believe in evolution?
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Female 2,228
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Male 2,313
QueenZira, your comments usually have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You act all excited like you`re about to prove us all wrong, then you say some random, unimportant piece of trivia. Perhaps you should learn how debates work before trying to take part in them.
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Female 2,228
In other words, keep your faith out of science.
Science is not capable (at the moment)of proving the existence of god. God can`t be measured, or seen, or felt, or tasted ect.

And that`s all there is to say about that.

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Female 2,228
I repeat: just b/c people, I don`t care how many people, believe in something that doesn`t mean it`s true. Thousands of years ago people believed the world was flat, slavery was good, and werewolves and vampires were real.

Creation says out of nothing god created life. That hypothesis cannot be tested and proven in a lab, It`s not science. For that to be scientifically verified every time we wanted to create life god should bust down the lab door and say,"get out of my way amateurs and let a pro handle this."
Evolution also says out of nothing came life, although this time there is proof. In the tiny intricate interactions of elements and chemicals. We have evidence for this. Just b/c creationists say "god did it" does not make it science.

Sixclaws, I highly reccomend that you understand Common Ancestory before you debate it.

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Male 2,313
QueenZira, your comment to me meant nothing. I told you I believed in creation and evolution, and you told me that meant I was a theist evolutionist. Call it whatever you please, I believe that the Judaic-Christian God created everything. Literally created it. And evolution took place in the millions of years life has been around, as it would have to in order to adapt and continue to exist in an ever changing world. I do not believe that my ancestors were pond scum, though yours may very well have been.

Sorry, sorry, I didn`t mean that. Joking. But if you are still confused by what I say let me know, I`ll see if I can simplify it a little more.

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Male 5,620
zira, you are probably the most illogical debater I have ever met. You now claim to have spirituality, but give a bunch of odd exceptions.. I don`t quite understand you. (and, yes I do understand what the words mean.)

Further more, I wasn`t talking about the rational thought of children, but that of adults. You said it couldn`t be argued empirically, and I provided you an empirical argument. You have to admit that since 85% of the people in the world follow some form of belief, that there must be some validity to that claim. Even Santa has a valid background.. somewhere in all the stories. To say that there is no validity to creation is to go against what 85% of the people of the world believe, in an honest opinion.. why do you think they believe it? It can`t all be just because someone told them to believe it.. 85% of the world is brain washed? C`mon, use some rationale.

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Female 2,228
And don`t assume that i`m anti-religion or anti christianity. I happen to be spiritual myself, but what I cannot abide is religious bigotry, literalism, or militant anti-intellectualism
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Female 2,228
Just b/c something is popular, or believed by many people, or that those people are honest about their belief does not make that belief true.

Many children believe in santa claus, most children believe in santa claus, they believe it honestly, but that does not mean santa exists. You have provided a proof that a belief in god exists, you have not proved that god exists.

I just told you about theistic evolution,*see comment to sixclaws* Evolution does not deny a belief in god. It does however go against crazies that insist on reading genesis literally.
And the whole E/C debate is revealed for what it really is, A bunch of religious nutters chasing their own tails over god.

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Male 5,620
Male 5,620
The 68-95-99.7 rule, or three sigma rule, or empirical rule, states that for a normal distribution, almost all values lie within 3 standard deviations of the mean.
85.71% of people follow a religion.
53.57% of people follow a Judaeo based religion.

The mean percentage of believers who perceive their views as truth is 85.71%, which means that Judaeo based religions have a positive z-score. (Which means that more people follow those religions as "truth") Now, truth also means honesty, so we can say that those people are honest about belief. Now we can summarize that empirically we have proven the existence of God, because of his followers. There you go.. empirical data sets.

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Male 5,620
Thats what queen zira is great at.. posting wild links, and never quoting a point out of them.. and assuming people believe extreme views. Its like she has never written a college level paper.
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Female 156
Queenzira, you`re missing the point. The idea isnt to point fingers about who is right or wrong. The idea is that this site (and you quite frankly) are making wild speculations on the way people believe and react.

"And if you think the whole site is wrong, well then dearie you`re a creationist in disguise."

-No, it means he disagrees with their viewpoints of others. THAT doesnt make him anything. Stop judging based on half-fact. Slow down. Relax. Its all going to be okay. You dont have to rabidly forcefeed anything in a debate. It generally helps when you actually listen to what is being said.

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Female 2,228
Evolution does not assign any creator, neither does it deny a creator. It is an explanation for life changing on earth. (the creator question cannot be answered b/c there is no empirical way to test and prove it)Your self identification is incorrect, you`re a theistic evolutionist, not an outright biblically literal genesis-as-history creationist.

And yes, there are indeed people who will make such wild creationist claims such as the site contains. Do you doubt folks like robertson, or falwell have made such statements?

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Male 2,313
"QueenZira
And if you think the whole site is wrong, well then dearie you`re a creationist in disguise."

I did not say the site is wrong, I said the claims the site claims that creationists make are not actually claims that sane creationists make. And haven`t I been clear that I am a creationist? In that I believe we were created, and have since evolved.

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Male 2,313
"as for religious people suffering a lot of scorn,only religious bigots and literalists have that fate, as is due and proper when anyone abuses religion."

Untrue. I hold a religious view. I have never pushed my religion on anyone. I only defend it when it is attacked. Yet, I have literally been spit on by a stranger for the Ichthys (Jesus fish) necklace I wear. When someone finds out that I am religious, most of the time they act like they have been told I am a homophobic, retarded fanatic.

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Female 2,228
As Contra64 has said, "It has Peer reviewed journal articles, The author is a zoologist,The article is well written and provides cogent commentary on the topic, not to mention it lists sources and refrences. Sorry to break your little creationist heart.
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Female 2,228
And if you think the whole site is wrong, well then dearie you`re a creationist in disguise.
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Female 2,228
"I just don`t believe my ancestors were single cell organisms"/ Therein lies the disconnect. And as for religious people suffering a lot of scorn,only religious bigots and literalists have that fate, as is due and proper when anyone abuses religion.
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Male 2,313
Wow, I just read the rest of supposed "creationist claims" on that site, and most of them are just completely untrue. I`d give examples but I could just link the whole site.
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Male 2,313
"4. Many creationists have a literally holier-than-thou attitude. For example, they (falsely) claim that believers of evolution are atheistic and evil. You cannot get any more snobbish or elitist than that."

In the New Testament Jesus forbids Christians from having a such a view. No one person is holier than any other. I do not believe that believe that evolution is an evil, atheistic view. Where in the Bible does it say evolution is untrue? It says we were created, not we were created exactly like we are now. I believe in evolution, I just don`t believe that my ancestors were single cell organisms.

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Male 2,313
QueenZira, that is a rather dumb page.

" 1. Most anticreationists would be content to let creationists believe as they wish and not make an issue of it. However, creationists make creationism an important trait. They make a huge deal of it and want to impose it on others. If creationists did not believe that it is one of the most important traits on which to judge people, the creationism-evolution dispute would not exist. "

That as completely untrue. Nonreligious people judge people first and foremost on their religious views. Here on IAB, what group judges the religious negatively? How many times have you seen, "Lol, u losers are dumb, there is no invisible sky man." How many times have you heard, "Lol, u losers are dumb, your going to hell for your disbelief." Your views of the atheistic being an abused underdog are archaic. In modern society, the religious take exponentially more abuse and ridicule.

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Female 156
QueenZira - I know exactly what Theory is. Both scientifically and the english definition. Thank you for your resounding lack of point.

Davymid - my previous comment was not an invitation to throw more links at me, it was a great big tsk in your general direction for taking a different topic and throwing it into the conversation to muddy the poverbial waters. I`ve seen quite enough of it in this (and every other) political year, I dont need to see it here. For shame.

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Male 12,138
Silverfire, Wikipedia not good enough for you? How about Reuters then? Good enough yet?
http://www.reuters.com/article/artsNews/idUSL0992091620080509?sp=true
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Female 2,228
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Male 2,313
Don`t worry QueenZira, we`re not going to make you go into anything, because we`re all tired of listening to masturbate your ego.
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Female 2,228
And don`t make me go into the whole Theory as folk word vs. Theory as used in science.
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Female 2,228
Silverfyre Read and Learn
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Female 156
"Yeah, when he`s not busy raping children and blackmailing them with the sex tapes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktar"
Davymid - 1. its wikipedia. nuff said. 2. I`m not standing up for the man. I dont care. I`m saying with this (probably self serving) statement of his he`s helping to advance research.
Dont start mudslinging just to draw attention away from the heart of the matter. It ill becomes you.

Liberalirony - You have a solid point. Evolution has a higher basis in fact than Creationism, which has next to none. My point was that both are still considered theories and the continual posturing was a waste of time. Let me know when they finally make a breakthrough, as I am still unimpressed.

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Male 759
I`d like to offer any Creationists my Soul, my familys Souls, my dog`s (ar)soul and David Soul if they can prove any of that bullbollocks that they keep reading in that badly translated, often misquoted, pulp fiction with plagues and fishes that they insist on reading.
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Male 1,666
Well I know how to disprove "intellegent" design. This guy.
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Male 196
OK in science a theory isn`t just a "line of thought which can`t be proven." Its something which links all the given facts together and remains untarnished when new data arises. Creationism is not a theory but a myth or story with no proof. Evolution however is a long standing fact based theory, so :-p creationists!
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Male 12,138
I`m getting tired defending science against Oktar and other mouth-breathing God-bumming creationist nut-bar crooks. They`re worse than televangelists: Instead of just scamming people out of their life-savings in the name of religion, they actually try their best to retard centuries of scientific advancement.

See that computer/internet you hammer away on every day? See the cancer treatment someone you know might be on? See that car your daddy drives you to school in every day, run on 200 milion-year old gasoline?

Thank your lucky stars there are people (like me, we`re called scientists) questioning, challenging, learning, and applying intelligence, without being shackled to neolithic religious fictitious books of pure mythology.

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Male 12,138
vv "They`re called theories for a reason. Oktar is actually helping to advance BOTH sides."

Yeah, when he`s not busy raping children and blackmailing them with the sex tapes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktar

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Male 11
7.5 tril, for tickets to a dog show? i think thats a good deal.
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Male 1,226
What a `tard....not only is that sum of money unobtainable for anybody but the evolution theory is NOT a theory. It`s a fact, just face it.
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Female 156
AH...again. The theory of evolution vs. the theory of creationism.

Theory - a line of thought which cannot be proven.

They`re called theories for a reason. Oktar is actually helping to advance BOTH sides. If there is proof found, then that will be a huge leap forward for finding out how we came to be. Right now, its belief and conjecture.

And otherwise, a total waste of time.

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Male 2,148
He`s Turkish, which means he`s set into his beliefs and no matter what is presented to him, he`ll dismiss it as high-tech sorcery or something. No one will get paid, whether or not he actually has that much money.
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Male 12,138
Wow. Armchair scientists everywhere.
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Male 2,309
"Precisely. Rene Descartes proved many many years ago that the only thing that can be proven beyond any doubt is that you yourself exist, because you are thinking. Everything else could potentially be an illusion. So, this Oktar fellow could argue that nothing ever proves anything except that he himself exists. And that doesn`t prove to me that he exists, only that I exist. Cogito Ergo Sum."

How can you prove that you`re even thinking? ralmfao. Seriously, that whole `philosophical thought` came about way before anyone knew what a computer was.

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Male 34
Observable evolution doesn`t occur in dogs because their reproduction rate is far too slow.

The generation of a new species within any given dog population takes several thousands of years.

However, we still see short term changes in the specific breeding patterns of dogs that produce the current differences between breeds.

Most of these alterations are dependent on how humans breed particular populations of dogs.

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Male 3,842
"Oktar`s a friggin` TROLL! Can`t you see that? DON`T FEED THE TROLL! He has no intention of paying a trillion ANYTHING, he`s just doing this to get attention."

Precisely. Rene Descartes proved many many years ago that the only thing that can be proven beyond any doubt is that you yourself exist, because you are thinking. Everything else could potentially be an illusion. So, this Oktar fellow could argue that nothing ever proves anything except that he himself exists. And that doesn`t prove to me that he exists, only that I exist. Cogito Ergo Sum.

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Male 32
Have fun QueenZira!
And that is a very nice point Khast, one that I believe...how does one explain viruses and bacteria...*looks to elkingo* or do species of bacteria not count? I mean, if you`d like I do have examples of species that cannot mate and they are higher order aminals (to use the technical term).
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Female 2,228
I hear the mall calling now, however *goes into terminator mode* I`LL BE BACK *glowing eyes*
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Male 5,620
zira, you say I am blinded by religion, and assume that as such I am ignorant.

You are blinded by science, and as such are ignorant of any other possibility other than what you was told. Whatever problem you have with religion, you really need to grow up. Resorting to name calling never really solves anything. It may make you feel better about yourself, as a method of defense, but you must realize that I am educated about things. You post articles, to make a point, that are 10-12 pages long. (if typed out 12pt double spaced) yet you never qoute them. Try to build your defense, rather than let someone do it for you, because more often than not, that prepared defense is about something totally different.

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Male 182
to prove evolution you want a transitional fossil. How about examples from everyday life? Viruses, Bacteria? We take medicine to get rid of the flu, we use anti-bacterial soaps to kill germs. What happens if you don`t kill all the germs? Only the strong survive...left to reproduce. Making new old strains of bacteria, with stronger defenses.

How about this, if we are to prove that evolution exists, how about proving that we were created...WITHOUT USING A CRUTCH LIKE THE BIBLE.

You can keep your money if you can prove that one in a true scientific way that doesn`t involve quoting, referencing, or otherwise yoking on silly myths out to tell us that we are going to hell if we don`t believe stuff which can`t possibly happen without "god". (I do have a religion..but I don`t go blindly in pushing my beliefs upon everyone...as I could be wrong....and so might yours...and don`t bring up the "Take a Chance and just believe" story that you guys always throw out like

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Male 32
Well if you must know the mating habits of dogs, the Beagle and the Irish Setter.
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Female 2,228
That`s odd, in a cute synchronistic kind of way, every IAB scientist loves to drink. Oh well, bottoms up gentlemen!
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Male 32
I`ve been going to this site for years but only recently (as indicated by my post count) actually decided to jump in on these topics.
I actually submitted a link earlier today too, and of course in celebration of popping my IAB cherry I think I`ll go out drinking...when my experiment is done.
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Male 5,620
So, which of the dogs can`t cross breed to differentiate species?
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Female 2,228
Very nice! Now you`re a true IABer.
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Male 32
Thanks for the tip.Hello?
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Female 2,228
Contra64, click on the link option near the comment box. That way people can access it with a click. Just a friendly tip!;)
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Male 7,378
i love it when uneducated christian rubes use big words pretending like they know anything other than their fairytale.
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Male 32
Hey! Now it`s my turn to post a website I found. (I had to move from the bench to the analysis room). So Elkingo, I`m so glad you brought up the dog, while of course it all depends on your definition of species. This link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=coffeebrk.chapter.643

details the distinct genotype of over 400 different dog breeds.

"Given that most modern dog breeds have existed for fewer than 400 years, it is surprising that dog breeds are genetically distinct. But a dog can be matched to its breed by its individual genotype. Of 414 dogs tested, only 4 dogs were assigned to the wrong breed."

I mean, that certainly sounds like genetic specificity to me. So it is very possible that given another 500 years we will see a new species or subspecies break off.

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Female 2,228
Continue to read the WHOLE article. If you run across any big words or concepts, try to find those ideas defined in simpler language. (Ya know,like a middle school vocabulary.)
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Male 5,620
From zira`s own article once again:
Top 4 reasons to accept speciation:

(1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science,
(where?)

(2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found,
(because of that it makes it law?... not very scientific is it?)

(3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, (where, again?)

(4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data. (so does that not also make these other explanations law also, by that same logic?)

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Female 2,228
Read `em.
I know it`s hard, all this thinking (you ovbiously don`t do it very often) but try it, it`s good for you.
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Male 5,620
what exactly are you trying to point out with these articles zira?
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Female 2,228
Elkingo is like the man who has his own finger up his nose who says, you can`t prove to me it`s there!!
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Female 400
Okay if that is the conclusion you have come to I can respect that since you do acknowledge many of the aspects of evolution.
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Female 2,228
WOW, you`re getting hammered aren`t ya elkingo?
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Female 2,228
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Male 5,620
I agree starrstreet, many Christians are ignorant of data. The problem isn`t with evolution, or natural selection though, its with animal speciation.

That part can`t be proven.

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Male 5,620
plant speciation takes on different rules from animals zira.. haha nice try.
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Female 400
It seems like all very compelling evidence that has led the scientific community to come to this conclusion is always ignored by creationist as insignificant because there are some things that are questionable. They`re always finding new things and changing the theory by trying to answer those questions.
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Male 5,620
Example:
Dogs didn`t have 800+ variations 200 years ago. Its all relatively modern. Its a great example of natural selection. It doesn`t however link the dog to the horse.
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Male 5,620
well, starrstreet, I am a Christian, but thats not why I disagree with evolution. I think it is possible to have evolution, and natural selection, just not this common ancestor crap. There isn`t anything to prove it. You can argue that there is speciation to begin with, but that poses a huge problem for science, because the chance of that happening is so astronomical that it couldn`t have possibly been by chance, which means something caused it to happen. Which, is where my faith kicks in.
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Female 2,228
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Female 400
Excuse me if I offended anyone but whenever people have extreme disagreement with evolution in almost every aspect and try many ways to disprove it, it seems to always be motivated by their religious faith.
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Male 5,620
you lost me zira, when did I say bacteria leave fossils?
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Female 2,228
You think bacteria leave fossils(?), you sir have a head made out of granite.

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Male 5,194
Oktar`s a friggin` TROLL! Can`t you see that? DON`T FEED THE TROLL! He has no intention of paying a trillion ANYTHING, he`s just doing this to get attention. And you gave it to him, IAB.
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Male 5,620
Yes, but look at the dog.. how many variations of it are there? Yet, through all that experimentation, no new species.
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Male 5,620
"New species show up all the time in smaller life forms. A better question is how is god creating all these new life forms that spring up over a period of time?"

Easy to answer from something I got from your article once again zira. Fossilization doesn`t always occur, and easy to hypothesize that they didn`t just pop up, but where there all along. haha.. your article is golden for making points.

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Female 400
New species wouldn`t develop over just 500 years... We wouldn`t know if there are new species evolving because we can`t have documented that change in the relatively short time humans have been recording data.
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Male 5,620
" "god" did all of this then humanity would never make progress."

I like how you draw the conclusion that all religious people are blind sheep, yet here I stand before you obviously studied some evolution theory to be able to argue it, and obviously a scientific mind. I, like you, agree though, that regardless of the conclusion, science should progress. I just think you made a bad assumption that all religious people only want to follow blindly.

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Female 2,228
Macroevolution & Transitions

New species show up all the time in smaller life forms. A better question is how is god creating all these new life forms that spring up over a period of time?

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Male 1,825
Want proof of evolution:
Rock and roll.

boom
*bangs head*

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Male 5,620
Well, then lets do take it to larger animals, where is any new species developing? I mean currently, lets say in the past 500 years since we have started studying animals.. look at the most wide species.. dog. There isn`t a dog on earth, that can`t be bread with another dog. Not probable maybe, but no new species has developed there, even though humans have interacted so much in the past 500? years.
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Female 400
There is never a simple answer in science because humans, all living things, our plant etc aren`t simple but extremely complex. There are always new things to be discovered and maybe we will find things to explain why there are gaps or maybe we won`t. To give up though with the simpler answer that a supreme being did it is an insult to scientific inquiry.

I`m not against people having that conclusion except when it interferes with our ability to advance in science. If everyone believed that a "god" did all of this then humanity would never make progress.

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Male 32
The important thing to remember elkingo is that evolution has been proven. It was immunology which proved to the supreme court that creationism was religion and not science. It was the evolution of viruses and bacteria to evade the immune system which finally shut up, Behe, the creationist poster child and termer of the phrase `irreducible complexity`. So if we can prove evolution on a micro-scale because bacteria reproduce so quickly, why can`t we say the same thing about bigger animals. I mean, I think it`s odd to say that there have been no mutations going on when humans get so many genetic disorders, and our genome is much more complex than say that of an insect. There`s a reason why fruit flies are used in genetics studies...because they evolve and produce random mutations. Some are beneficial and some are not. This is not an issue of religion, it`s an issue of choosing to ignore proof that can`t be made more clear.

If evolution didn`t exist antibiotics would still work.

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Male 5,620
To illustrate my point, from zira`s own article we first have a picture of "Acanthodians(?) (Silurian) -- A puzzling group of spiny fish with similarities to early bony fish."

Next, here is a pic of a "Palaeoniscoids (e.g. Cheirolepis, Mimia; early Devonian) -- Primitive bony ray-finned fishes that gave rise to the vast majority of living fish. Heavy acanthodian-type scales, acanthodian-like skull, and big notochord."


The changes look quite dramatic to me, rather than small changes, but this is the layout of it. Why are there no fossils between them?

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Male 1,825
You guys do know that fossilization doesn`t happen every time something dies? It is a very random happening and the situation has to be just right. So its pretty insane to assume that every species should have a fossil, or that they should all be easy to find.
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Female 2,228
Well said Contra64, well said.
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Male 5,620
well said opie, but, and you can feel free to compare it to religion if you like, people who argue evolution do this. They have several "reasons" for why trillions of fossils aren`t on record.. and from zira`s article, reasons such as they "aren`t made available to the public." But, when I say these reasons don`t matter, I get accused of being close minded, when a simple answer can`t answer why trillions of fossils don`t exist.
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Male 32
Sorry QueenZira, but the link you provided had peer reviewed journal articles. The author is also a zoologist, and last time I checked animals had nothing to do with evolution. (So clearly she has no idea what she`s talking about).

Also, the article is well written and provides information that is applicable to the topic of discussion. I think you need to stop espousing this Godless science and look more for answers in genesis.

No, I`m not trying to start a flame war... please disregard any previous posts I may have made. It`s not like this `debate` is keeping me entertained while I carry out my experiment, that I had to freakin` come in over the weekend to do.

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Female 2,228
"no matter the reason" Yes, because elkingo is a master of dragging off reason into a back alley and slashing it`s throat. Reason counts for nothing with him...Tell me elkingo are you a Jehova`s witness by any chance???
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Female 15,763
Can I just say something in between all the arguing?

Science aims to gather evidence and then find an answer. And that answer is always open to alterations, to change, or to being completely wrong. Science is ever changing, ever accepting of new ideas, doesn`t try to think up answers then find evidence for them.

That`s all.

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Male 5,620
No matter the reasoning, there is still trillions of fossils missing, and 3% (like zira`s article states) of a trillion is still a huge freaking number, to say hey.. it just didn`t happen.
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Female 2,228
Or we can all go with Elkingo`s side, after all the story with the talking snake is MUCH more feasible...
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Female 2,228
About gaps and transitions... Plenty more where that came from.
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Male 5,620
The problem with evolution is the problem that Darwin himself pointed out. Iff (spelled that way on purpose) evolution took place there would be thousands upon thousands of transitional fossils. There is huge gaps missing hands down. You can`t link things together in a chain when 50-100 pieces of the chain is missing between each link. The question still today is where are the missing links?

Come to either one of a few conclusions:
1. They never existed.
2. Natural Selection isn`t as selective as they say, and we started out with several thousand species, rather than 1 common ancestor.
3. Intelligent Design, or Creationism must have occurred.

Thats three possibilities, and no way to prove any of them. It all depends on what you have faith in, or rather, what you choose to believe. But don`t call evolution a scientific law, when you can`t do that. I can tell you all day I have faith that the God created the world, but I don`t expect you to accept it as law.

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Male 1,825
On the other hand howerver, Do the evolution by Pearl Jam is a very good song and video.
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Male 1,825
Couldn`t we just prove the bible is bull poo and consider it a win?
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Male 9,305
ZOINKS! THAT IS AWESOME! XD

As for the story, what the hell is that guy doing with so much money anyway and why hasn`t he done anything constructive with it?

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Female 4,028
Funny how they need absolute proof for evolution, while no proof but "fate" to believe in their gods. Weird. Why don`t they provide the evidence for once?
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Male 32
Forgive me, I`m a bit late, but I see evolution proven about 2 times a week. And contrary to what Monktoast says, I see both biochemical and physical proof of evolution. This might be because I`m a biochemist working in immunology...but anyone that tries to tell you evolution isn`t real, just remember good ol` bacteria.

Evolution has been clearly documented in bacteria (as they have a very fast turnover rate and introduce more mutations in their genome than we do). This is how antibiotic resistance arises.

If you would like Monktoast I can detail the exciting world of protein evolution (yay oxytocin and vasopressin) in biochemical assays or just leave the proof in some delicious pudding.

Bah I just looked up what answers in genesis had to say about bacterial resistance...if you`ll excuse the irony, God I hate that site.

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Female 400
Well you can`t undoubtedly prove evolution since no one was around to watch millions of years go by but the evidence is certainly compelling enough to confidently subscribe to the theory.

There is much more evidence to the theory of evolution than the "theory" of creationism. I can hardly get myself to write the word theory there because the word theory implies the scientific method was used to come to that conclusion. Creationism ignores that method and instead uses blind acceptance called faith.

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Male 437

i win

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Male 1,455
You can prove evolution. It`s been done- that`s why it`s called a theory, and not a hypothesis.

But these morons aren`t after real proof, they want evolution to answer irrelevant questions like `What caused the Big Bang?`, and they refuse to accept the evidence they are given.

Creationists will accept electromagnetism, radiology, and gravity; but deny evolution because it contradicts their faith. It`s retarded in an extreme.

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Male 154
ONE REASON EVOLUTION IS SCIENTIFIC THEORY AND CREATIONISM IS NOT. Evolution was determined using the scientific method and was formulated after years of observing, testing, predicting, and finding. Creationism on the other hand, already had in mind how the earth was created (by god), and went trying to find evidence to support that conclusion.

You can`t conclude first then look for evidence that supports that conclusion. It`s just bad science.

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Male 34
It`s impossible to show evolution in one single fossil.

A common misconception about evolution is a belief that it happens during a single being`s life span.

This is not the case as evolution only occurs in populations over an extended amount of time (millions of years to weeks depending on the organism). Evolution can never happen within an individual, only the processes that lead to evolution, such as mutations, can occur within a single living thing.

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Male 4,867
`just as bad as the bible`?????

explain.....

your comment has nothing to do with biblical flaws, it seems ur just saying it is all crap.

remember it was written waaaay before google or wikipedia

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Male 11
Theory of evolution is just as bad as the bible. It takes millions of years for just a small change yet they only find one. They find one genetic mutation and scream look its proof! Unless you can find hundreds of that fossil it means nothing.
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Male 4,867
`I dabbled in Jurassic sea urchin evolution`

same

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Male 3,301
Who likes mustard?
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Male 505
So did God evolve from something?
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Male 1,837
im the evolution. wheres my money
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Male 311
Spore
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Female 929
O_o What? Noo! Keep arguing everyone! XD
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Female 2,228
Out 2 lunch. See everybody later...
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Male 274
Internet debates are stupid.

"rawr rawr rawr *incorrect fact*"

"rawr rawr *spelling error*"

"rawr rawr *you spelt error wrong*"

"rawr rawr who cares"


"rawr rawr racist comment"

"rawr rawr u racist lololol"

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Female 929
Hehehehe... :D
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Female 2,228
Funny thing Davy, I was just reading in the anthropological tract ironically named "Eve`s Seed" that the whole ribcage part in Genesis was written by the priesthood to mimic the female process of birth. Hence in this story a man takes over the function of birth (mythologically) At the time it was brilliant theological propaganda, nature is turned on her head and a man gives birth!
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Male 5,620
Davy, because, you can`t argue rationality from an irrational statement. You illustrated, quite well, how irrational this guy is, so why start a debate from there, on either side?
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Female 2,228
Indeed, I do so enjoy my boney heritage.
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Male 7,378
first of all he doesn`t have 7.5 trillion. Richest man in the world (as of march this year) was warren buffet clocking in at $60bil. secondly evolutionary anthropology has had many significant finds. if Mr. Oktar had used Google or did any research he would know that the "theory" of evolution is as certain as gravity. Think with your mind not your heart.
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Male 12,138
vv ""Preposterous!" wail creationists, "monkeys, how undignified, everyone knows we were made out of mud!!"

Zira, remember, only Adam was made from mud, Eve was made from one of Adam`s ribs that God plucked out from his ribcage.

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Female 2,228
Monktoast: Feast your eyes
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Male 2,313
"jebler

didnt read it or the comments."

Thanks for letting me know so I can fully ignore your comment.

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Female 400
Oh good... I`m sorry, I didn`t know you had such a hatred for hoodies, lol.
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Male 263
creationism has just the same amount of speculation evidence as well to make a case, if by speculation we are creating our paradigms, which species to species evolutionary science does.

we can speculate that the flagellum is needed in every living thing to be fully functional or else nothing could live, then how was life supported without a fully formed flagellum?

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Male 111
As if someone this stupid has that much money anyway. Idjit!
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Female 2,228
Our ancestors were prehominid apes says evolution.
"Preposterous!" wail creationists, "monkeys, how undignified, everyone knows we were made out of mud!!"

Thus their argument is summarized.

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Male 263
the only way to prove evolution is not circumstantial or speculation, but on DATA. this data can be found in sequencing the actual dna changes from one species to another like A map, anything short of that and you are just guessing. because all the "proof" of evolution we have today are fossils (which dontprove species to species evolution) or similar dna structure to chimps which again doesnt prove a thing scientifically,so-called vestigial organs or appendixes such as the blue whale "legs" which have shown to be not vestigial at all but serve a use as with many accusations of vestigial things alittle digging shows they have use , biochemical make up which only proves adaption in speciation, that is a species changing but staying the same species.
scientific data is gained by observation and observation alone. noone has observed species to species evolution on a biochemical or physical level.
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Male 12,138
vv "dang good points davy.. for both sides.. =D"

Confused, Elkingo. I can see where there`s some good points for one side (don`t listen to the mental religious nut-bar creationist who rapes children is a pretty strong case). What were the points against the other side again (you know, the rational, evolution, biological science stuff)?

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Female 2,044
oh, if he`s in jail, then how will i ever get my money?
*sigh*
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Male 5,620
well said jeebler. It all boils down on what the individual decides to believe.
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Male 1,142
didnt read it or the comments.

any evidence that does or doesnt prove evolution is based on personal interpretation and opinion. those who want to prove evolution will see most fossils as prof because you can fin similarities to other fossils. those who want to see the similarities are the product of everything being created by god will see it that way. i dont care if someone builds a time machine goes back in time builds a space station full of robots that can maintain themselves and the station for millions of years and then shows that guy millions of years of video evidence of evolution he will still say its gods will. that they dont chance because of natural selection its a test of his faith.

win i say god im not specifically referring to any one idea of god just a general and easy way to refer a higher power be it 1 omnipotent being or the god of the sea whos powers extend only to things having to do with the ocean.

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Male 12,138
vv And I have a crush on you too starrstreet, now that you`ve finally changed out of that goddam hoodie...
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Male 5,620
dang good points davy.. for both sides.. =D
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Female 400
This guy is a joke.
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Male 12,138
vv Red, you should be safe enough, as he`ll likely be behind bars by the time you go to collect... "On May 2008 Oktar and 17 other members of his organisation were sentenced to 3 years in prison. Oktar intends to appeal these charges".

Reuters story here

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Male 503
this guy is an idiot. a blue whale is living proof of evolution. a blue whale still has bones that were once its legs, but now there are just two bones in its body that do nothing.

ill take cash plz, just incase the check bounces...

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Female 400
I have a crush on davymid.
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Female 2,044
thanks for the info, davymid.
when i have to go receive my check for my proof of evolution, i`ll be sure to send my dad instead, so i wont get raped.
:D
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Male 2,313
And Davymid, your avatar evolved from the ancient species of epico awesometus.
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Male 12,138
I`ll hold off debating evolution with a crazed Islamic creationist who believes Darwinism the cause of Terrorism, whose highest education is a failed Interior Design degree, who also apparently rapes kids. Thanks.
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Male 12,138
When I find a claim like this one, I find it useful to go and learn about who the person is. I mean, presumably this guy Adnan Oktar with the trillions to give away will also be the judge on the validity of the scientific evidence put before him?

The Wikipedia article on the guy makes for great reading, here`s a few highlights:

On his neutrality: "He denounces terrorism, which he says is a product of Darwinism"

On his education: "In 1979, he moved to Istanbul to attend an interior-design course at Mimar Sinan University but left before graduation."

On his character: "According to the indictment of the prosecutor’s office, cited by the daily Cumhuriyet, Adnan Oktar and associates raped young women many of whom were under the age of 18 on camera and blackmailed them by threatening to release the sex tapes to their friends and family members."

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Male 130
Has the gentleman not missed the point in that evolution occurs over many generations, and that one fossil will not prove evolution?
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Male 2,313
"Crabes

Creationist is retarded, thats all we need to know"

Oh! Creationist is retarded. Not creationism or anything. Who`s the retard? You the retard.

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Female 2,044
you mean the fact that we evolved from monkeys?
okay, so dont monkeys walk using their fists?
like this:

well, if you stand up and relax your hand, you`ll notice that your fingers are a tad bit curved.

if you try to straighten them, it sorta feels forced.


i just noticed this by looking at my hand, and my friend`s.


i know thats probably just stupid, but i`m just saying what i think :D


SO, WHERE`S MY 7.5 TRILLION DOLLARS?!

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Male 109
Evolution could fart right in the face of a creationist, and they`d swear they smelled God.
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Male 2,958
-Not specifically Adam and Eve, but they have done studies to link the human race back to 3 sets of people.. which would indicate Noah`s children.-

"they" have done "studies", eh?
you`re gonna have to throw a link up for that one.

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Male 928
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tra... Here`s a decent list of transitional fossils. If you don`t count at least one of these, you`re just hopelessly stupid or stubborn.
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Male 928
Maybe if Bush can get the jury to come back in on evolution, then he can get rid of our deficit. Elkingo, drat you.
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Male 1,078
Elkingo: It says in the article it`s 10 trillion lira, or 7.5 trillion$.

How does he get that money anyways?

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Male 36
I have a friend that looks like a Cro-magnon man. Is that good enough?
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Male 2,788
where in hell did he get 7.5 trillion dollars?
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Male 5,620
And also, can you prove Adam and Eve?

Not specifically Adam and Eve, but they have done studies to link the human race back to 3 sets of people.. which would indicate Noah`s children.

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Male 196
I`ll give some one 432 trillion if they can prove that God created Adam and Eve.
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Male 5,620
Well its 7.5 trillion Lira.. which is like 5.3 trillion dollars.. but sure if he has that much.. but it doesn`t matter.. because no one can find a transitional fossil. haha
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Male 1,284
Creationist is retarded, thats all we need to know
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Male 2,486
The lira was revalued in 2005 at a rate of 1,000,000:1, but the old currency remains in circulation and is still accepted as legal tender at that rate.

I imagine Oktar`s 10 trillion figure refers to this old value, which would translate closer to $7 million USD.

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Male 2,344
The richest man doesn`t have 100 billion in our world, how is he supposed to hand out 7.5 TRILLION???
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Female 525
Wouldn`t it take more than ONE fossil to prove it? And also, can you prove Adam and Eve?
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Female 687
Idk... o,o

I`m kinda half my relgion and half evolution. :/

I feel bad tho for not believing totally...

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Male 1,815
There`s not a single COUNTRY in the world worth that much money.
This whole things is retarded.
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Male 2,592
Why do I have a feeling this will never pay out
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Male 79
It doesnt matter how much im worth, the point is creationism can`t be proved
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Female 2,258
So basically from that article I gathered that he`s offering a ridiculous, pantie-dropping amount of money for something that has already been found... multiple times. So does he have to pay multiple people now?
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Male 274
House and property < 7.5 Trillion Dollars

Suck on that.

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Male 79
And I`ll give him my house and all my property if HE can prove creationism.

Suck on that.

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Male 650
work work work..

eh drat it lets do that LHC thing we always wanted to do

and so it happened

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Male 263
i`m a creationist who doesnt believe n evolution, (i beluieve in adaption however), but..for 7.5 billion dollars think i`ll go a digg`n fer dem bones!
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Female 1,690
hmmm...interesting.
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Male 274
dude- he has that much money to blow, and our economy is fubar.
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Male 614
I`d like to be a trillionaire
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Male 404
yeah i think he should put that money to better use and help out the Good ol` USA


No...?

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Male 209
Has he got that much money ?
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Female 331
That`ll make even the most devoted religious fanatic turn to evolution.

Oh, if only I knew where to find that fossil...

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Female 1,605
Link: $7.5 Trillion If You Can Prove Evolution [Rate Link] - Turkish creationist Adnan Oktar offered $7.5 trillion to anyone who produces a single fossil demonstrating evolution.
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