Texas Church Loses Fight to Change Name of Gay St.

Submitted by: eugenius 9 years ago in Weird

That must mean they"re gay then, from what they probably believe.
There are 181 comments:
Male 2,605
"I can answer that one, Overmann: freedom of will for humans. If some omnipotent being simply prevented anyone from ever doing anything immoral, it would certainly violate human free will."

What? Are you f*cking kidding me? "I`m God and despite my own righteous moral convictions, I`m going to enable these people, my dearest children, to beat the ever loving sh*t out of each other and rape each other`s children because, me forbid, I don`t want robots. I would have made robots if I wanted robots, medamnit." My point is that any moral deity who held morals such as we (who would have to at least have a smidgeon of our morals if people want to claim morality comes from God) would not go out of his way to instill free will. If he cared as much as people say he does, he`d ensure our safety from ourselves. And if he truly wanted people to have free will, why the f*ck give them his own brand of morality? So I ask again: are you f*cking kidding me?

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Male 135
Well that`s just Gay!
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Male 12,365
"If a god possessed the same morals as we, why is there evil? And if a god did not possess the same morals as we, why would he give us different morals? Not that I expect you have the right answer, it`s just a healthy question to ask."

I can answer that one, Overmann: freedom of will for humans. If some omnipotent being simply prevented anyone from ever doing anything immoral, it would certainly violate human free will.

If I believed in the "God is Good" school of Christianity, I`d feel sorry for god. It would be seriously bad to be all good, to be all knowing, to be all powerful...and have to just watch all the crap in the world.

But I don`t, so it`s OK. Besides, there is plenty of "God is a fickle despot who demands utter obedience and kills on a whim" in the Christian bible too.

But I don`t believe in that version either.

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Male 12,365
"Angilion, you are missing the point. All scripture. ALL. A-L-L. Therefore, regardless of how they seem to conflict, the modern English is still the ineffable and irrefutable Word of God. ALL means ALL."

Lionhart2, it is you who is missing the point. Unless you really do mean that anything written down and passed off as a translation of scripture is itself scripture, even when it`s a mistranslation mixed in with some changes that the people making it wanted to add.

If that`s the case, we can solve the problem by making up a version of the Christian bible that says homosex is just fine, no worries, and then that would be the Word of God, right?

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Male 2,605
I did not say that God had to limit himself to any sort of logic, horn4231. About logic, I only said that I feel it`s a lot more satisfactory to believe any achievements in logic we`ve made as a species are to our own credit and not to a god`s, in which case we`d have to believe a god intentionally dumbed us down.

On the subject of *morals*, however, I suggested God does not share our sense of morality because he instilled evil when we as a people see it as wrong. How could our morals possibly have come from a deity when we can`t but question why any good being would willfully allow such evil to take place?

On that note, I can see how these discussions would be frustrating for you when you constantly misunderstand what I write.

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Male 87
Overmann - i`ve tried having this discussion with you before, and it is a little frustrating for a number of reasons, but here we go again.

but, don`t you believe that if God had to limit himself to human logic, and that we absolutely understood everything about Him and His decisions, wouldn`t that make him....not God?

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Male 2,605
"which amounts to so much. Does human respect really at all determine the power of God? No."

I don`t appreciate your sarcasm on this issue. Human respect is all any of us have to go by down here, here where your vacant claims of immortal divine love have no meaning. If there was no such thing as respect or reciprocal altruism, this world would be a much more grim, unpleasant place.

"What I always love seeing is humans attempting to explain away an immortal being through shoddy mortal logic."

What I love seeing is how quick some people are to belittle human thought. Not that logic is infallible, but relishing what faculties of thought we do have is a lot more enjoyable than assuming God intentionally dumbed us down.

If a god possessed the same morals as we, why is there evil? And if a god did not possess the same morals as we, why would he give us different morals? Not that I expect you have the right answer, it`s just a healthy question to ask.

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Male 2,605
Lionhart2, your article is skirting the issue. Regardless what God wants his human playthings to be and feel for him, if any god was moral and just as we see it, there would be no evil. Period. If any god wanted to look out for us people, there wouldn`t be murder, rape, grief, suffering, agony, or pain. One slightly more subtle problem of evil is that any god that permits evil is not moral by our own standards, which implies that our morals did not come from such a being.

And it seems to me that if a god wanted people to feel genuine love for him, the best way to demonstrate this would be to... wait for it... give them a reason to. I`m not convinced a god that desires my affection would create such a world as we live in. If he desired my affection, he would remove any potential risk of cancer and do his best to let me know this.

The Problem of Evil is not a problem so much as it is a stumbling block for those who make it one.

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Male 87
"What I always love seeing is humans attempting to explain away an immortal being through shoddy mortal logic. Kinda gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. But not really."

I know exactly what you mean. kudos to you for defending your beliefs.

it is incredibly frustrating to watch people bash christianity when they lack the tools to examine their own beliefs.

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Male 215
"repect of humans"
which amounts to so much. Does human respect really at all determine the power of God? No.

"You pick out some contradictory passages in that mess of a conflicted mistake ridden book of yours. There are other passages that refute your quotes outright."
Then by all means, let`s see them!

"If your god is evil, he is not worth serving."
Then I suppose it is perfectly worthwhile to serve Him then.

What I always love seeing is humans attempting to explain away an immortal being through shoddy mortal logic. Kinda gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. But not really.

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Female 2,228

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Female 2,228
Big deal. You pick out some contradictory passages in that mess of a conflicted mistake ridden book of yours. There are other passages that refute your quotes outright. You can`t make head or tails of it. No coherent dogma at all.

If your god is evil, he is not worth serving. He would be no better than your satan.
I repeat:
IS SOMETHING HOLY B/C OF INHERENT GOODNESS, OR DOES THAT JUST MEAN GOD DOES WHATEVER HE PLEASES? IF GOD TOLD YOU TO MURDER YOUR WHOLE FAMILY B/C IT WAS "HOLY" WOULD YOU DO IT?

If your god does not operate from a position of goodness than there is no reason to pay heed to his BS. He is not Just.

Remember " a failure to love is evil..."

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Male 8,300
I suspect you know absolutely nothing about `traditional theology` then...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7)

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6)

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Lamentations 3:38)

I suggest you read "Why did God create evil?"

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Female 2,228
You have the IQ of a potato.
NO. Wait.

That would be an insult to Potatoes.

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Female 2,228
You cannot have a relationship with a being that is a complete OTHER. If such a being is psychotic, murderous, plays w/ his creatures like an demented puppeteer, that being is no god at all and not worth of the repect of humans, let alone worship.

According to traditiional theology, god could not have created evil b/c he is ALL GOOD. Evil required the creation of a being like satan, simply b/c god could not have created evil. In that scenario, satan`s disobediance is evil.

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Male 8,300
"generally an all good, all powerful, all knowing being does not dabble in evil"

Pity you didn`t bother reading the post before rebutting it. Neither God nor Jesus has ever claimed to be all good. His laws are for Him to decide, His justice is by His own standard not ours. God DID create evil as well, because He created everything.

I refer you to Malachi 1:3, where God Himself says "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated". Esau was cursed throughout in every regard, and Jacob had the life of Reilly. Why? For no other reason than God decided it was to be so.

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Male 8,300
"The Jews have a special name for this kind of person, a chasid shote or Pious Fool."

I call him the only devout and holy man in the story. God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present Creator of Everything. Absolute obedience is called for to such a Being. Anything less is second-guessing Someone who is so far above you that you are nothing to Him. How many of you would create an adventure game then refuse to "kill" the inhabitants because they had rights? It`s absurd to even contemplate it. God is the Creator, His commands are to be obeyed for that reason, no matter how human mentality interprets them.

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Female 2,228
I will tell you my favorite Midrash. (Jewish teaching story)
Once upon a time there was a very holy upright Rabbai. Every day he studied the Torah and followed the decreees and proscriptions to a T. He memorized the commandments so that they were written on his mind and his heart. One day this very Rabbai saw a woman flailing in a stream calling out for help. He sat there and let her drown. Why? He was afraid of breaking the taboo on touching impure women and didn`t take the chance. The Jews have a special name for this kind of person, a chasid shote or
Pious Fool.
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Female 2,228
No.
generally an all good, all powerful, all knowing being does not dabble in evil. Period. If you think that is the true divine nature you need to go evolve some more. 30,0000 yrs more.

I refer you to Plato`s discussion w/ Euthyphro on the subject of holiness. Is something holy b/c it is by it`s very nature holy, or is it holy b/c god says it`s so? If the latter does that mean the same as saying god does whatever he wants. In other words, if god told you to murder your whole family b/c it was "holy", would you do it. Troglodyte

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Male 8,300
And if you REALLY want to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, slip the Hebrew altogether and go back to the Greek... that "For God so loved the world" verse uses MONDOS, which means "all of you" not "everyone", so what the infamous John 3:16 really says is "God loved all YOU CHRISTIANS so much that He sent His only Son to save you". The rest of the world goes to Hell, period.
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Male 8,300



There are none so blind as they who *will not* see...

Angilion, you are missing the point. All scripture. ALL. A-L-L. Therefore, regardless of how they seem to conflict, the modern English is still the ineffable and irrefutable Word of God. ALL means ALL.

And to all the people whose arguments go something along the lines of "Christianity is all about loving everyone"... taurus excreta! God ordered the Jews to commit genocide throughout the Old Testament, because THEY were His Chosen People. Christ said "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword". When he added an 11th Commandment, to "love one another as I have loved you" He was speaking to His disciples and Believers, not to the world at large. The oh-so-famous John 3:16 "For God so loved the world..." verse is spouted endlessly by modern social-club feelgood churches, but read the next few verses for once! Loves everyone? Everyone will go to Heaven? God can never hate?

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Male 15
i think that the whole Catholic Protestant thing is more the Catholics believe in an all forgiving and loving god and they follow the whole love the sinner hate the sin thing on paper... where as the protestant churches believe when you sin you have to repent for it instead of rambling out a hail mary... Yay for having parents who forced their views
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Male 12,365
Christian: No-one has been able to give a scriptural reason for Christianity to prohibit homosex. Definitely not between women, probably not between men. So we can go to the core of Christianity - what did Jesus say and do? About homosexuality...nothing. It appears that Jesus the Christ wasn`t bothered about it, so why should any Christian be?

Moral: I think this boils down to a question: Where`s the victim? I don`t see one, so I don`t see a moral problem. There are victims in some homosexual contexts, but that`s no different to the same heterosexual contexts. It isn`t homosexuality that`s the problem, obviously. It`s rape, domestic violence, etc, which is neither hetero, homo or bi.

Practical: Many people have been having homosex at least as far back as the beginning of recorded history and no doubt before then. Humanity still thrives, so obviously minority homosex isn`t a problem in an evolutionary sense.

So...where`s the problem, really?

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Female 1,652
Haha...I saw this on tv.
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Male 12,365
@ohthedrama
"The Catholic Church does, the protestant churches do not."

Odd...I can find things saying the opposite. The Catholic church can`t really be said to coexist peacefully with homosexuals - it regards their sexuality as profoundly sinful and requires them to utterly repress it.

Church of England is probably the most compatible denomination, though it`s currently in conflict with itself and might split over the issue.

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Male 12,365
@lionhart2
"And frankly, I, along with just about every other IAB-er, am sick and tired of the pro/anti gay debate that ignites whenever the word is mentioned. The Bible forbids it, people still do it, I don`t, you don`t, he or she does."

Actually, I`m arguing that maybe the Christian bible does NOT forbid it and that definitely it doesn`t forbid it as clearly as most people think.

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Male 12,365
@lionhart2:
"Oh... and to all the scholars above who are trying to impress us with their knowledge of Hebrew and how every English translation is wrong... you forgot 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". That includes the modern English translations. So your argument is that God is wrong and you are right? I don`t think so."

You are now arguing that *two very different* scriptures are both from God. Scriptures that comflict with each other. One of which is a mistranslation of the other, either through ignorance or through deliberate changes.

You`re the one arguing that God is wrong, not me. I`m arguing that some humans are wrong.

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Male 2,605
And finally about the link: this is one of the many reasons why I love San Antonio.
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Male 2,605
"I am a straight person struggling with homosexual temptation. That is what I would say. And by `break free` I mean, deciding not try to live my life without that being a part of it."

There is no such thing as homosexual temptation. What you`re interpreting is that God has some kind of hate for homosexuals but the only way you can reconcile this is by believing Satan is responsible for homosexuality. Why else would a God hate his own creation? But here`s a little something closer to the truth: people don`t like thinking of themselves as animals. It`s true. How many animals do you see run around with clothing? (None yet, but as tool usage evolves in other apes, we`ll see it). People tend to distance themselves from homosexuality because it`s completely natural, not the other way around. My advice would be what feels right to you, not what others tell you should be right.

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Male 2,605
I have morals, and they`re not Christian either. They`re fundamental. And you want to know the other juicy morsel? They`re evolutionarily derived. Look up the term reciprocal altruism (you may know it as "The Golden Rule") and you`ll see many, many societies have made the same statement in some form or another before Christ. Also look up examples of reciprocal altruism in nature, hopefully to dash your sense that only humans are moral.

"and the greek for the word `slave` means something such as an indentured servant"

The Greek word for `virgin` can be interpreted as `maiden`. Imagine that, billions of people believing something because a statement was mistranslated.

"God did not want those laws, but He knew the people had to have some sort of guidelines so they were put in the bible."

I strongly suspect you`re pulling this out of your ass. Stinks like it.

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Male 2,605
"The church and the homosexual community cannot live together because homosexuality is detestible to the Lord."

Then why would he deliberately spare all the little animals, who willfully have homosexual relationships in the wild, from the Flood? Seems like the perfect opportunity to abolish homosexuality entirely.

"(and if you aren`t a Christian, there is no moral reasoning against it, so no point in debating, unless you have Christian morals)"

Contrary to what you may believe (or were told to believe by your parents, who in read in from a friggin` book), morals do not come from God or from some book telling you how to behave. Do you honestly believe everyone thought it was perfectly fine to murder, rape, pillage in the intervening years prior to God`s issuing of the Ten Commandments? Really? Man has always been "moral". That`s why people feel compelled to pick through particular verses in the Bible, because some are more moral than others.

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Male 2,605
Switch out eating unhealthy food with a sexual lifestyle, and you have at least an intuitive understanding of why there are gay people. Perhaps being gay satisfies some other perceived need, say... I don`t know... the need to be loved. Call it a "chance" that a certain proportion of a population will turn out gay by a combination of nature and nurture. These gay people will not live on to pass on their genes, most likely, but so long as there whatever process (biological or sociological, or a combination of both) is still ongoing, there will continue to be gay people. The reason why being gay hasn`t killed off our species is because there was a sufficient population of people who were not gay and could\would procreate.

Seriously. If you`re going to mock a scientific theory, make sure you properly understand it beforehand.

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Male 2,605
"homosexuality is not who someone is, it is a condition that people struggle with. It is not natural and not how we were made. If we were meant to sleep with the same gender, it would be able to continue the human race."

No... no... no. Let me us a different example to show you how wrong you are in your understanding of evolution.

Take whole foods, for example. Humans evolved having only whole foods available to them, and so our bodies adapted to them. That is the reason for the correlation between whole foods and health. Our bodies are optimized for natural food. Now, superimpose Fruit Roll-ups and ice cream and Twinkies. How do they fit? They don`t. Diabetes is not at all conducive to our health, yet people still eat junk food. Why? Because maybe doing so satisfies some other desire besides mating, and maybe eating junk food doesn`t hinder procreation but is sort of neutral to it.

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Male 3,431
GAY!!!
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Male 9,305
Nothing better to do huh 2nd Baptist? Any orphans you wanna feed? How about that paint-over-the-graffiti project? How`s that working out for you?
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Male 239
I`m not a theologian or anything, but here`s my take on the whole homosexuality thing...
Christianity is about love for one`s fellow man. Homosexuals are people. Therefore to be considered christian don`t u have to love people regardless of their orientation?
I`m not saying you have to condone their choices. It is possible to love a person while having a difference of opinion over how that person lives.
For example: parents love their children - but they do not support the negative behaviors of those children. There is an appropriate seperation between the feelings one has for a person and for the person`s behaviors.
I`m not gay. But I grant homosexuals the same free agency that I have. I believe they are entited to the same rights and respect that I am. I also don`t agree with hard-core gamers or fathers who leave their families or people who`s favorite colour is orange - but they`re all still people. Love them - disagree with them, but love them.

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Male 15
and what does it matter what some long dead schizoids wrote down on some crappy papyrus way back when... i think i`ll stick with the fun tussling in the sheets... it`s just so much fun
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Male 15
angillion... Not all homosexuals consider their homosexuality to be the definition of who they are... nor do all christians or asians or necrophiliacs... but that doesn`t mean that there is no larger community of any group... although i really hope there isn`t a necrophilia community... *shudder
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Male 889
im waiting for the priest to come out of the closet now.
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Male 162
"It`s due to about 3200 years (if I recall the generally agreed date for the start of Judaism correctly) of faith that homosexuality is profoundly wrong and that homosexual sex is a grevious sin. With that faith, it`s extremely obvious why "the church"(*) and "the homosexual community"(**) can not exist together peacefully."

The Protestant Churches will often go straight from the text of the Bible to prove to you that Homosexuality is wrong. The Catholic Church goes to the source right out of Genesis which makes for a much stronger argument, that Man was made in God`s image and that woman was made for man. It is the natural flow of man and woman to be together not man and man or woman woman. The Catholic Church states Homosexuality is a sin but you won`t see them getting obsessed over it.

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Male 162
"I do not see why the church and the homosexual community can not exist together peacefully."

The Catholic Church does, the protestant churches do not.

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Female 1,264
Here! Here!
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Male 8,300
And frankly, I, along with just about every other IAB-er, am sick and tired of the pro/anti gay debate that ignites whenever the word is mentioned. The Bible forbids it, people still do it, I don`t, you don`t, he or she does. Live with it but can we please stop with the same mindless debate every single time????? Pleeeeeeeease?????
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Male 8,300
Oh... and to all the scholars above who are trying to impress us with their knowledge of Hebrew and how every English translation is wrong... you forgot 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". That includes the modern English translations. So your argument is that God is wrong and you are right? I don`t think so.
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Female 1,264
If the church was really taking a stance on the homosexual tones in the streets name they would have used their reason as an oportunity to protest against homosexuality instead of using an `excuse`.
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Male 8,300



I googled "gay street" to find a good picture... and found this wikipedia entry:

"Gay Street, a short street that PENETRATES one block of Greenwich Village in the New York City borough of Manhattan..."

LOL A bit of a tongue-in-cheek entry there on wikipedia (and please, no jokes about `tongue in cheek entry` - the mental picture is already disturbing me once I realised the double-entendre)


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Male 12,365
A translation example...the infamous Leviticus 18:22

Transliterated Hebrew:

V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee.

An attempt to make an accurate English translation:

And with a male person you shall not lay lyings of a woman. It is ceremonially unclean.

Even that`s not a very accurate translation, as you can see by the fact that it`s necessary to split the sentence in two to make any sense of it.

The usual translations are made up to fit a desired point of view.

It might mean that men can have sex with each other as long as none of them pretend to be women.

It might mean that men can have sex with each other as long as they don`t do it in a woman`s bed/anywhere a woman has slept/anywhere a woman has had sex.

It might mean all sorts of things, but it certainly doesn`t mean what it`s claimed to mean in English translations in bibles, and it`s explicitly referring to male people only.

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Male 12,365
OK, I`ll issue a challenge:

Find me a passage from the Christian bible clearly forbidding consensual homosex in a monogamous relationship.

Sounds easy, right?

It isn`t. There are passages forbidding homosexua l promiscuity...like heterosexual promiscuity. There are passages forbidding homosexual rape...like heterosexual rape. There are passages forbidding the ritual sex that was practiced by some other religions that Judaism was competing against, and those have been twisted into something against homosex by simply making stuff up and calling it a translation.

But find me a passage clearly forbidding homosex in any circumstances.

Before you try, bear in mind that every published English translation is wrong, usually very wrong. If you do not know the meaning of words such as qadesh and to`ebah and where they are in the Hebrew passages mistranslated into English, then you won`t have a clue what the passages you`re citing actually mean.

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Male 12,365
@davymid:
"I am so f*cking disgusted with the Christian church right now- specifically the Catholic church. There are 10`s of millions of people dying in Africa right now of AIDS, and yet the catholic church is still out there preaching against condom use..."

To be fair, they`re also preaching against sex outside of marriage and suchlike. It isn`t really their fault people ignore some parts of what they preach and embrace some other parts.

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Male 7,933
Catholic, and dental isn`t bad. Pays up to 1500.
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Female 1,264
Thats the problem with society today; war, descrimination, conspiracy theories, they`ve all left us in a constant state of hostile suspicion. Today it seems like everything is a slur away from being racist or a turban away from terrorism.
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Male 12,365
Josh2601:
"Firstly, Zira, homosexuality is not who someone is, it is a condition that people struggle with. It is not natural and not how we were made. If we were meant to sleep with the same gender, it would be able to continue the human race."

So your god screwed up and made some people wrong? You`re trying to pass religion off as being rational. Wrong. It`s faith, not reason. Two completely different things.

You make yourself look foolish with the "natural" argument. Firstly, homosexual activity is common in nature, across numerous species. Secondly, much of the way humanity lives isn`t natural. Which tree did the computer you`re using to types your posts grow on? Thirdly, natural isn`t always best. It`s natural for humans to murder each other to obtain better resources, for example. Finally, the reproduction thing is obviously rubbish. Homosex has been part of human activity for at least all of recorded history and no doubt long before that. H

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Female 1,264
Primetimekin, does your religion have a name? I`m thinking of joining. Whats the dental plan like?
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Male 12,365
@Josh2601:

You are trying to be internally consistent with the "love gays, hate what they do" thing, which shows that you have more integrity than many, but you`re trying to pass your selective choice of parts of your religion as being rational, and that`s wrong and silly.

For example, you dismiss parts of your faith that you don`t like by saying "those laws were for the time, they were neccesary to maintain order in ancient israel. God did not want those laws, but He knew the people had to have some sort of guidelines so they were put in the bible."

So why doesn`t that apply to your interpretation of the Christian rules against homosexual sex?

Which, by the way, you`ll have a very hard time supporting from Christian scripture. For a start, they`re all male-specific. So what basis do you have for objecting to homosex between women? Then there`s the fact that all the clear passages are Jewish, not Christian, and I`m sure you ignore most of the rest of th

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Male 12,365
smnrg7:
"Angilion... hate to burst your bubble but there is a fairly large gay community in almost every major city they`re kinda hard to miss... big rainbow flags and all... and yes we are trying to take over the world and doing fairly well as i see it"

You`re fighting a strawman. You`ve made your own bubble to burst.

I was rebutting the idea that there is "the homosexual community". That would require *a single community* to which *all* homosexual people belong. There is no such thing. There are numerous communities each of which consists of some homosexual people. There are many homosexual people who don`t consider themselves a member of any of them.

Not all homosexuals consider their homosexuality to be the definition of who they are.

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Male 19
Sorry! First post cut short, I meant to say something about their souls, but I`m sure you get the point. :)

Have a nice day, IABers!

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Male 19
Attempting to "help" gays overcome temptation does nothing for society but breed hatred and resentment.

On the larger scale of religion in general, I find the ENTIRE concept to be unfair.

Christians: You died 2009 years ago. OOPS. You were a good person but because you didn`t have faith in the good lord Jesus Christ, you`re pretty much screwed for eternity.

Mormons: Oooh, I`m sorry. You died before Joseph Smith wrote the book of Mormon. (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb). Well good gosh golly, you`re just going to have to spend your eternity in a void of darkness!

Sounds fair? Eeh... not really.

And that can be said about pretty much any major religion out there that holds beliefs in damnation and salvation.

Back to the topic of homosexuality: You have two guys that like to do it in the butt. You have two girls who uh... do whatever lesbians do.
They`re not hurting me or you, so why not?

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Male 19
Adding my two cents to the argument that has probably already gathered $20 from posters here.

Josh: though I respect your religious views and your views that hatred against gays is wrong, the rest of your argument just seems flawed.

Lets pretend for a moment that you`re right and that homosexuality SHOULD be "treated" like alcoholism in that the "homoholics" should try and break free of this apparently disgusting habit. Now these "homoholics" have stopped taking their "homohol" for quite some time. What has improved in their lives?

I mean, when an alcoholic stops drinking alcohol there are obvious benefits. Their general health improves, their life becomes better, they can land a job without needing to drink every hour or so and live a generally better life.

What about our cured "homoholics"? They go back to their normal lives except now... they try their gosh darnist to like chicks over dicks. Benefits? None really. I mean-- be

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Male 544
I see what you did there....

Religions are overly aggressive. Overly, gently aggressive.

But you can`t blame them. They`re just trying to save you from the fire and brimstone. No offense intended, anyone that cares.

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Male 352
"Sunday, August 10, 2008 2:29:30 PM
I do not see why the church and the homosexual community can not exist together peacefully."

Because harmony cannot be achieved until one or the other (much more preferably the first one) is vanquished. This world isn`t big enough for that much mass confusion and misguidance.

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Male 3,369
I`ll make it simple for some of you. Imagine a grain of sand on your fingertip. Imagine thats the Sun..you know the big thing in the sky out planet is in orbit of. Now no matter how far u can see..aided or unaided in any direction that STILL wouldnt signify how small this planet is on a universal scale..then imagine everyother grain of sand on every beach on this planet being a sun at the center of its solar system...and this is before we start trying to do the math for possible intelligant life out there..

So just think of the size and scale of it all..and some of you muppets really belive a word of what the bible says?

The mind boogles!

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Male 1,265
Oh ffs, not another one.

Exactly why a person`s sexuality is anyone else`s business I can`t fathom, especially the business of the church.

How does the homosexual activity of others blight the lives of heterosexuals? Why should the straights care what the gays do when the straights aren`t that bothered about what other straights do?

drat it, can`t be bothered to plumb these depths of Biblical horsepoo this time.

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Male 513
Not like I`m the first one, but I can`t see a problem. "Gay" meant "happy" back in the day. Why change the name now? Get over it people!
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Male 215
I would have to semi agree with you, a great majority of Christians nowadays are extremely ignorant. And it can be very very embarrassing. But what I hate is when people generalize a faith based on its followers.
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Male 1,825
i would agree, you all are, but being an non-nice individual is against my religion.
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Male 215
I remember a few years back I had an account here, and then I started trying to get into all these serious discussions on religion/philosiphy and all that good stuff, and nearly got my butt chewed to pieces by all the atheists/agnostics. But then again I was very ignorant back then. Still am a little bit I guess. I would think that we all are.
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Male 215
Yeah, lol. Kill someone and steal? That gives you a grand total of... -10 pts. Well that`s an automatic ticket to hell young man!
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Male 7,933
theguy, its IAB, we all fail at any decision we make before hand.
Mine: I will not get addicted to it. So much for that.

And its nice to see I have 2 more arguing on my side... maybe one day I can forget about ttsec... one day (he wasn`t even a christian he was a theist but still)

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Male 1,825
josh is a homo in disguise, sin blah blah blah, and a bunch of other stuff.
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Male 7,933
theguy I think I know what it means.

You need a score of 10 to get to heaven.
Church +1
saving someones life +2
Stealing Gum -1
Killing someone -3

(Yes, my God has a chart. And its on Excel too. Thats how I see it.)

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Male 97
Well, it is 1 here too. I had better go to bed. Thanks for the wishes of luck, but I have God, and I think that is better!!! WOOO! Well, night all!
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Male 215
And to think, when I was making an account here, I thought "no serious discussions".

I fail.

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Male 184
okay, I`ll tough it out. But I don`t really know what we`re even talking about anymore, to be honest.
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Male 12,138
Good night all.
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Male 215
My post was directed at Josh, btw.
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Male 215
k. Just interested in reading the verse. The point I was trying to make is that, like the Bible says, "The wages of sin is death". Meaning that any sin, regardless of type, magnitude, or severity, is enough to warrant condemnation. Yes, we would view killing someone as more inherently "sinful" than stealing, say, a piece of gum, but yet regardless of how large the impact of the action, it still has the same outcome outside of Christ Jesus.
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Male 1,825
i`m coming back, to just say, Booyeah! i was right!

following that, good luck josh on stopping lying to yourself

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Male 7,933
2AM here, tough it out Emo. And I have to wake-up early.

And that passage refers to Mortal and Venial sins if I remember.

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Male 97
the guy 91, I don`t have my bible with me right now. it is downstairs and I too lazy to go get it, lol. I will post it here tomorrow though. I think i is almost at the end. But I wil post the specifics later.
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Male 184
Well, It`s 1:00 AM where I live, so goodnight everyone.
And good luck being straight, Josh.
Haha.
c:
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Male 7,933
"still out there preaching against condom use..."

Just changed about a few months ago. I do agree somethings need to be changed (I blame bad interpretation) but its getting there.

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Male 215
"Josh, the all sins being on par could mean different things. While Yes, a white lie isn`t as bad as murder, I think his point was that homosexuality is not the worse of the worse and that its not the Church`s agenda to specifically target gays and "be out to get them""

In a nutshell, yes.

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Male 97
I think they are against condom use because they think a better solution would be not having sex with so many people and stuff. But, I figure, they are gonna do it anyway, so give em` the condoms.
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Male 7,933
Josh, the all sins being on par could mean different things. While Yes, a white lie isn`t as bad as murder, I think his point was that homosexuality is not the worse of the worse and that its not the Church`s agenda to specifically target gays and "be out to get them"
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Female 2,228
*Agrees w/ Davymid* How I wish I could do more good for the world at large...
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Male 215
" Paul says in 1 corinthians that "not all sings lead to death" showing that not all sins are equal and such. "
You`re going to have to be more specific than that. I`d like to see the verse that you`re talking about so that I can read over it, if you don`t mind.
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Female 272
Why did they build the church there???
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Male 97
I am a straight person struggling with homosexual temptation. That is what I would say. And by "break free" I mean, deciding not try to live my life without that being a part of it.
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Male 12,138
I am so f*cking disgusted with the Christian church right now- specifically the Catholic church. There are 10`s of millions of people dying in Africa right now of AIDS, and yet the catholic church is still out there preaching against condom use...
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Male 97
actually, all sins are not on par with each other. Paul says in 1 corinthians that "not all sings lead to death" showing that not all sins are equal and such.
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Male 184
Just curious, josh,
what do you mean by "broke free"?
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Female 2,228
Seriously Josh. Is that true? Are you Bi or Gay?
If you`re be honest w/ yourself I`ll be right behind you.
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Male 97
lol, primetimekin
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Male 215
4 pages of stupid arguing! Oh, and why does it seem like people go around talking like homosexuality is the antithesis of Christianity? It`s only mentioned a few times throughout the Bible, and at that primarily only in the books of law in the Old Testament. (Although it is mentioned a few times in the New Testament.) But even then, it is simply listed as just another sin, akin to stealing and lying. I`m not up for name-calling or a flame war, but I believe that, regardless if homosexuality may be a genetic thing (I honestly don`t really know what to believe on this subject)or a choice, that it is to be controlled and hopefully repressed along with the desire to sin in other manners. But again, homosexuality is NOT somehow "worse" than any other sin. It is considered on par with them, and thus should be treated as such. It really doesn`t deserve the huge drama that we give it.
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Male 1,825
i should leave too. This dog course for jesus is almost as bad as cheerlearder camp for jesus.
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Male 7,933
Josh, the current term is socially correct as politically correct is offensive to politicians
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Male 1,825
Well naturally the emo ruins everything by saying a stupid blanket statement.
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Male 97
lol, I am emo, so true, so true. Being politically correct is going overboard.
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Female 2,228
Davymid. I appreciate you soldiering on w/ me. I really do. But, I`m gonna take a leaf from Nidonemo`s book (he has the most excellent web manners anywhere on the net) and let this fundie rot. We`ve allready beat his arguments to a bloody pulp.
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Male 97
Again, we are looking at the Christians that are not listening to God, and I know AIDS isn`t a gay disease, I never said that.
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Male 97
Well, if you want an honest and true answer, yes. There is no life after death without the salvation of Jesus. Homosexuality is an ongoing temptation that controls your life, religion choice is a decision that is made upon things you have seen, heard, and learned. It is different when it is a conscious decision, compared to an ongoing urge.
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Female 2,228
And don`t get me started on the AIDS issue. AIDS is not a gay disease. The religious right seized control of the panic and ignorance of the time and labeled it such to pick out a scapegoat and give the scared masses an enemy to unite against.

Classic tactics of hate mongers + facists.

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Female 1,287
whoops:
***religion***
[grammar nazi]
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Male 7,933
Queen, replace the word gay with anorexia. Statement remains true. No one is saying anorexic camps should be removed. Actually, most camps dont work.

And Josh, alcoholism might be cure able. I have an uncle that asked to give health to my cousin and in return he would give up drinking. Its worked for about 2 weeks now lets see if it continues.

And before the it was the doctors thing... Which doctor was it? The ones in Miami, Maryland, Nicaragua, Ft. Lauderdale, Europe, your pick? While doctors did help be EVENTUALLY finding the problem, I have to say that little prayer helped

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Male 184
You can avoid alcoholism by never having alcohol in the first place. However, homosexuality isn`t really preventable in any way I know.

And it`s best to stay away from alcohol because it can give you cirrhosis and liver disease. Being gay doesn`t do you any harm.

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Male 97
I am not saying you can be talked out of gayness, just that it is something that people deal with and have to handle it and keep it in check.
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Male 12,138
Oh and Josh, what about Islam, or Buddhism, or Judaism? Are these also diseases that can be cured? Are all these people also going to Hell unless they are "Saved by the blood of Jesus", along with all the homos?
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Male 97
HIV is contracted through promiscuity and making poor choices. I don`t believe HIV to be comparable to homosexuality. Alcoholism is uncurable, but wouldn`t you agree it is better to just stay away from alcohol?
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Male 1,825
i didn`t say uncle toucher, i said touched by your uncle. there is a big difference from the molester and the molestee
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Female 2,228
All your "camps" where the gay is "talked" out of people and all your quack "reparitive" therapy DOESN`T WORK. It wouldn`t work for a straight person either. Those "solutions" have one inevitable end, suicide for the patient.
Gay is as inherent as straight, and it would be painful for a gay person to even try to be something they are not, same for the straight.

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Female 1,287
the arguements arent fun when you know nothing about any religeon.
-_-`
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Male 7,933
Which is why we have to find a cure davy. He wasn`t against them but rather the act. I am against AIDS but not AIDS getters. Getters is a word i think
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Male 1,825
Clueless is all relative.
let the true genius in the padded room remain.
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Male 7,933
no kenny, there is a difference between saying uncle toucher and an addict. If someone said that heterosexuality was like alcoholism I would allow it
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Male 97
No, I don`t have a poster of sexy Jesus, lol, whatever that means and my uncle lives in DC and I haven`t seen him for a year. He is a cool guy though, he is really smart and stuffs.
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Male 12,138
Josh, you preach acceptance, yet practice intolerance. I was once a hard-core Christian. I`m talking bible-camps, youth fellowships, christian retreat weekends.

I am being very honest and serious here, it`s people like you, Josh, that made me turn away from the church.

Josh, let me translate for you what you sound like, to someone not mouth-breathing though the mask of the scripture. Let`s play a game. Let`s replay your last post, transposing the word "gay" with the words "born with HIV". To me, they are about equivalent.

"Being born with HIV is not who someone is, it is a condition that people struggle with. It is not natural and not how we were made. If we were meant to suffer from HIV, it would be able to continue the human race."

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Male 1,825
And calling someone an uncureable addict seems like an insult. it`s just a diffrent view. It`s all relative.
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Male 97
*sigh* I can`t talk to you kenny f, you are just... plain clueless, at least Zira has some intelligence and knowledge coming forth from her statements. At least, I have respect for her, even if we don`t see eye to eye.
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Male 1,825
oh, i`m not josh, i don`t blow low.
and did that happen to strike a chord, my friend?
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Male 215
Basically he was saying you masturbate to Jesus.
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Male 7,933
He asked whether you enjoyed it when your uncle touched you and do you have a poster of sexy jesus?
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Male 97
What was the low blow? I can handle it, just curious now, lol.
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Female 2,228
Replace gay w/ straight in your above statement.

See it sounds just as asinine. Are you really THAT disconnected from your own sexuality that you have to hide behind the "choice" defense. (it has the tensile strength of wet toliet paper BTW)

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Male 1,825
then just have a book that says "love everyone, do onto your neighbor as you would yourself". But you don`t, because that wouldn`t control people, and sufficently confuse them enough to have worthless arguments on the internet.
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Male 7,933
and another thing, I wont accept name calling unless it has drat or I am a pretty little girl because the filters just make it funnier
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Male 184
But these arguments certainly are fun!
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Male 7,933
"Christian vs. Non-Christian arguments over the internet are dumb and a waste of time. "

Were on IAB, its not like we are re-writting the Born-Oppenheimer Approximation

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Male 7,933
okay kenny that I will have to delete. Im all for argument but thats a low blow
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Male 215
One more time!

Christian vs. Non-Christian arguments over the internet are dumb and a waste of time. They never get anywhere. They just end up with ignorance on both sides accompanied by stupid name calling.

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Male 97
What people don`t realize is that homosexuality is like... like... alcoholism. Some people are born with an addiction to it. While some people fall into that and continue to do it forever, some people stop and just don`t drink alcohol or stay around it. It sucks for the people who feel gay, but they just need to stop. It is hard, and sometimes you fail, but it is worth it in the end. I know. It is incredibly hard, but you know it is the right thing.
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Male 184
@Josh
next time God speaks to you, record your conversation and show me.
I`m genuinely intrigued at the concept of God speaking to someone.
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Male 7,933
Dam queen, kenny, learn the bible. Seriously.

Its all in that one line.

Everything is USEFUL for Teaching and refutal.... thats why they dont take it out. Then it goes on to say he will not destroy but fulfill and it is yada yada yada til heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth passed away with the death of Jesus thats where "God gave his only..." yeah

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Female 2,228
It was to make sure that the Israelites never had to deal w/ scary gay people. B/c oh my angry heterosexual god! We are just terrified of SEX!
Some biblical writer got way too much sand stuck in his buttcrack and decided to write something malicious so future generations would look at how miserable he was(not to mention pedantic) in the middle of the dessert.
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Male 215
GAH. Christian vs. Non-Christian arguments over the internet are dumb and a waste of time. They never get anywhere.
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Male 97
I am not being a hypocrite, those laws were for the time, they were neccesary to maintain order in ancient israel. God did not want those laws, but He knew the people had to have some sort of guidelines so they were put in the bible. No longer do we have to have rules for indentured servants. That just doesn`t happen anymore. Things that are no longer in use, no longer need to be put into action. What the bible says is true there, but we don`t have servants, therefore, we don`t need rules for them. Ad kenny F, no clue what that is supposed to mean?
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Male 15
Angilion... hate to burst your bubble but there is a fairly large gay community in almost every major city they`re kinda hard to miss... big rainbow flags and all... and yes we are trying to take over the world and doing fairly well as i see it
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Male 1,825
and i don`t think you speak hebrew or aeramaic, so you can`t say what it translates to. It says in the same book that says gays are wrong that you can have slaves from neighboring countries.
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Female 15,763
Ahh... I don`t have the energy to be in this link right now.

There are too many things I want to say and I don`t want to spend time trying to convince someone that a trait about myself which I cannot and do not want to change isn`t evil.

Hasta luego.

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Male 97
I do not hate gays, I am not using God as a scapegoat and I don`t think legitimizing things with religion is a sneaky way to appease people. We believe what we do because of things we have experienced and ways that God has spoken to us etc. If you truly believe all morals and decisions to be placed on lies, solely for the purpose of giving people "good" reasons for something, then I would be disappointed in you.
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Male 1,825
ooh, sombody`s got the "not in my house, son" talk before. which camp were you shipped off too at the first sight of an erect penis from the ralph lauren catalog?
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Female 2,228
@josh
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Female 2,228
^HYPOCRITE
picks and chooses which verses to obey and not to obey!
Cafeteria christian
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Male 1,825
Then why is it in the bible? if you people don`t believe that poo, don`t put it in your "holy" book.
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Male 97
Patthebaker, please don`t be ignorant. We don`t follow all things in the old testament because Christ has come back, God still loves everyone, and the greek for the word "slave" means something such as an indentured servant, someone who is working in order to pay off debt.
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Female 2,228
"If one imagines oneself as a fully aware founder of a society, a kind of combination of moses and machiavelli, one could ask oneself the following question: How can the future continuation of the institutional order be preserved now established ex nihilo, be best ensured?
Let that order be so interpreted as to hide, as much as possible, it`s constructed character.
Let the people forget that this order was established by man, and continues to be dependent upon the consent of men. Let them believe that, in following the order imposed on them, they are but realizing the deepest aspirations of their own being and putting themselves in harmony w/ the fundamental order of the universe. In sum, set up religious legitimations"-ditto
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Male 97
Firstly, Zira, homosexuality is not who someone is, it is a condition that people struggle with. It is not natural and not how we were made. If we were meant to sleep with the same gender, it would be able to continue the human race. Also, Christians that hate homosexuals are not real Christians, they are fools who wear that lable. Real Christians who follow the teaching of God love gays but not their lifestyle such as someone would love a drug addict, but not their damaging addicting. Homosexual desires are a normal thing for all people, but acting upon them is what is condemned in the bible. Loving someone of the same gender is fine, but when they love becomes sexual, that is when it crosses the line and becomes wrong. We don`t want to make homosexuals ashamed and guilt ridden, we want them to realize who they truly are through Christ. (and if you aren`t a Christian, there is no moral reasoning against it, so no point in debating, unless you have Christian morals)
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Male 7,933
pat, he`s a christian, thats not followed. The whole "until heaven and earth pass away" that was when Jesus died.
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Male 1,825
I hate second baptist church. I mean i hate all churches, but second baptist really bugs me.
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Male 1,766
Hey there josh2601 whats your favorite bible verse mine is Exodus 21:7
WOW the bible sure is accepting of everyone isnt it
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Female 2,228
"christianity by far is the main sponsor of hatred for and discriminitory policies against homosexuals. A phenomonon that Colbert refers to as "manotheism." this hostile exression of paranoia and xenophobia is rationalized as a divinely sanctioned stance to protect the family and individual moral purity. Accordingly, when questioned those who foment such hatred usually pass the buck to god.
however homosexuality is just another way, a non heterosexual way, of being human. So religious zealots who persecute + vilify homosexuals and make them feel ashamed and guilt ridden for simply being who they are, are purveyors of alienation"- Daily Show +Phiosophy
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Female 15,763
Ahahaha, I`m honored. xD
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Female 1,287
alrighty my picture is now there.
and i worked really hard on it.
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Female 1,287
I cant change my picture!
it wont work!
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Female 15,763
Someone who doesn`t believe that homosexuality needs to be swept under the rug and treated as a special bad thing, Josh?
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Male 97
The church and the homosexual community cannot live together because homosexuality is detestible to the Lord. I understand if it is for an activist, like, free speech, Charles Gay or something, but not as in, homosexual. Who would name something homosexual streen or queer avenue, I mean, really.
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Male 12,365
"Dude! Our religion has been seriously misinterpreting this stuff about homosexuality for the last 3200 years! Bummer!"

Hmm...can`t see that happening much. So I also think it`s not going to go away.

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Female 1,287
O.O

DX
make it stop!

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Male 12,138
^^ Mychemgirl is kinda obsessed by the red dot, right enough...
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Female 321
The whole gay vs. church thing is really played out to me. I`m tired of hearing about it, and yet I know it is never going to go away. Joy.
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Male 1,766


Hello MYCHEMGIRL
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Female 1,287
hello!
the red dot people!
its watching all of us.
just staring at you.
watching your every move...
<_<
>_>
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Male 12,365
Rman1201:

It does not say that at all. You are quoting a dubious English translation of the Hebrew. They`re all dubious, because the Hebrew is unclear. It is, for example, possible to legitimately translate that passage as forbidding men from having sex with each other in a woman`s bed. Fine anywhere else, just not in a woman`s bed. Seriously. That is a legitimate translation.

The context of the verse you refer to is such that it could refer specifically to practices of a religion that Judaism was competing against. If so, the passage only forbids men having sex with each other as part of that religion.

The verse you refer to is in Leviticus and is therefore Jewish, not Christian. It`s part of a big list of rules, virtually all of which are ignored by Christians. There`s no self-consistent reason to ignore the others but follow that one.

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Male 7,933
patthebaker
Male, 13-17, Africa
1119 Posts
[ Delete Post ] Sunday, August 10, 2008 9:57:20 PM
^^best post to ever grace IAB
====================================

I believe that honor goes to BikerTeen

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Male 7,933
davymid, we are not anti-gay. I am an american therefore I cheer them on in the Olympics (Mens Gymnastics). And now that I finished watching it since NBC does completely air everything live.

1) Did you see Womens Gym? The judges sucked and Shawn Johnson (girls name I swear) was impressive. I liked the little Kentucky Blugrass music she put.
2) Mens 4x100 medley> EuroCup (and I liked the EuroCup... with the exception of Spain winning of course)

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Male 493
As soon as I saw "Texas", "Church", and "Gay", in the article title, I knew that some kind of nonsensical religious fight would ensue.

Just suck it up, that street was named Gay for a good reason, and entirely unrelated to homosexuality.

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Male 1,766
^^best post to ever grace IAB
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Male 740
kay
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Male 12,138
^^ "I do not see why the church and the homosexual community can not exist together peacefully."

Well, you know, the church is all about the Bible, man. And well, in that pesky old Bible it decrees that gays should be put to death.

I don`t know what to read into that, but I feel that somewhere within lies the root of the problem, if only someone could pick apart the rhetoric.

You know, the rhetoric that says "kill gays".

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Male 246
@ Angilion:
Its actually more severe than what we think. In the bible it says "If a man is seen laying with a man as he would lay with a woman, surely he shall be put to death"...
If we followed the bible exactly we`d have to hang and stone all the homosexuals.
Of course I think the bible in itself is full of crap.
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Male 246
Don`t know why the churches are supposed to get such special treatment, you can tell the news people thought they should be allowed to change street names as they please....you dont see and streets being changed to walmart drive or Rman lane....
But the news channel was saying "there wouldnt be a problem if the street had a different name to start with"...I still see that as a problem.
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Male 12,365
It`s due to about 3200 years (if I recall the generally agreed date for the start of Judaism correctly) of faith that homosexuality is profoundly wrong and that homosexual sex is a grevious sin. With that faith, it`s extremely obvious why "the church"(*) and "the homosexual community"(**) can not exist together peacefully.

It`s my opinion that the Judeo-Christian scriptural stance on homosexuality is actually far less severe than it`s generally thought to be, but that`s my opinion and I`m hampered by my inability to read ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek (and the fact that no-one has the originals any more anyway).

* It`s doubtful whether there is such a thing as "the church" when it comes to Christianity, due to the number of different varieties of Christianity.

** There isn`t really any such thing as "the homosexual community", either, or if there is it comprises only a small minority of homosexuals who aren`t really a community anyway,

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Female 15,763
HAHA.

Oh man, that`s gotta feel awkward.

It`s like when the KKK adopted a highway, and they were assigned the Rosa Parks highway.

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Male 254
eh. it bored me.
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Female 1,287
where im from almost all the street names are named after fruits.
just like this one!
:D
-no pun intended. it was an accident.]
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Female 47
Who`s in charge of street names at City Hall? I need to send them flowers. Rainbow colored flowers, of course. :D
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Female 321
I feel like I`ve been demoted to 3rd grade.
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Female 1,287
am i the only one that sees the tiny red dot in the upper left hand corner of the screen?
what is it.
<_<
>_>
i think it s a camera.
------------------------
but, on topic:
gay street.
its...catchy, actually.
but, the church is being nit picky to get what they want. from what i have seen.
BAD CHURCH! BAD!

[red dot wouldnt stop staring at me...]

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Male 509
Of course it means they`re gay!

Right?

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Male 1,766
Unfortunatly they won the right to change Rusty Trombone DR.
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Male 21
I do not see why the church and the homosexual community can not exist together peacefully.
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Male 1,620
Link: Texas Church Loses Fight to Change Name of Gay St. [Rate Link] - That must mean they`re gay then, from what they probably believe.
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