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Date: 08/16/08 10:59 AM

144 Responses to Atheist Discrimination In Army

  1. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 10:54 am
    Link: Atheist Discrimination In Army - Seems like there`s quite a few Evangelical Christians with a not so hidden agenda. Warning: Flame War Inevitable
  2. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:05 am
    Let the religious flamewar COMMENCE
  3. Profile photo of techgeek07
    techgeek07 Male 30-39
    2593 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:08 am
    I didn`t see anything like this when I was in the military. It sounds like they`re taking an extreme case and blowing it out of proportion
  4. Profile photo of patthebaker
    patthebaker Male 18-29
    1768 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:08 am
    to everyone ion this forum i disagree
  5. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:08 am
    "There are no Atheist in Fox Holes"

    Great line.

    Isnt the ACLU the one that wants to rename Los Angeles?

    Anyway, it should be pretty obvious that he doesnt deserve promotion. If you dont have the respect of the people who are shooting right beside you, you can`t lead them.

  6. Profile photo of theguy91
    theguy91 Male 18-29
    215 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:10 am
    FLAME ON
  7. Profile photo of techgeek07
    techgeek07 Male 30-39
    2593 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:11 am
    Prime,
    I agree, but, you don`t have to pray with them to get their respect. Nobody I was stationed with would`ve taken anyone as less than what they`re worth themselves.
  8. Profile photo of zoinks
    zoinks Male 13-17
    437 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:14 am
    ^^^^
    what techgeek said. you shouldn`t have to share someone`s religion to have their respect
  9. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:15 am
    zoinks, but its not the armies fault. If I were him i would try to switch base. Not sue the defense department
  10. Profile photo of evo69
    evo69 Male 18-29
    53 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:18 am
    Never been in the Army but meh.
  11. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:18 am
    I`m not surprised since it comes from the country who puts "In God we trust" on their money.
  12. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:20 am
    I have such a fitting demotivational poster for this...but its insanely sick, and i think its real, so i wont :-P
  13. Profile photo of deathxtra
    deathxtra Male 13-17
    2791 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:21 am
    there will be at least 5 pages of posts.
  14. Profile photo of zoinks
    zoinks Male 13-17
    437 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:22 am
    its not entirely the armys fault, but they obviously have a share of the blame.

    they didnt promote him because of his religion

  15. Profile photo of deathxtra
    deathxtra Male 13-17
    2791 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:23 am
    http://www.graystorm.com/wordpress/wp-co...
  16. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:23 am
    "And what political(?) figure was it who said something along the lines of: "If you didn`t believe in god, then you aren`t a true American."..?"
    -----------------------------------------

    "I don`t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

    - George H. W. Bush

  17. Profile photo of DrJack
    DrJack Male 13-17
    184 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:24 am
    I am a Christian, but I wouldn`t take offense if someone doesn`t pray with me. I am in Boy Scouts and we have to do Grace before every meal. I know there are some Atheists and Non-Christians in our troop, but they still gather for Grace. On the subject of Boy Scouts...Did you know they ban Atheists/Agnostics/Gays? I think that is very harsh.
    http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp
  18. Profile photo of ninjanamedjt
    ninjanamedjt Male 13-17
    251 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:24 am
    that`s messed up. i`m on hall`s side
  19. Profile photo of mylostdog
    mylostdog Female 18-29
    471 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:26 am
    Oh silly religious shennigans.
  20. Profile photo of mylostdog
    mylostdog Female 18-29
    471 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:28 am
    and wow, drjack, that is messed up about the boy scouts.
  21. Profile photo of GunMetal
    GunMetal Male 13-17
    161 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:34 am
    He probably cursed out faith in front of his religious comrades. Like other people said, If someone has a different religion than me I wouldn`t care to join them in grace. It`s respect. This guy however, probably said some nasty things to get them pissed off at him.
  22. Profile photo of dilldog123
    dilldog123 Male 18-29
    1856 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:35 am
    a fellow boy scout...what rank has YOUR mother forced you to obtain? im working on my eagle.
  23. Profile photo of LoofahBoy
    LoofahBoy Male 18-29
    3301 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:35 am
    How heavy is a three pound bag?

    How long is a ten foot pole?

    What time does the three o`clock train arrive?

    What color is brown?

    Questions...

  24. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:37 am
    Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:34:34 AM
    He probably cursed out faith in front of his religious comrades. Like other people said, If someone has a different religion than me I wouldn`t care to join them in grace. It`s respect. This guy however, probably said some nasty things to get them pissed off at him.
    --------------------------------------------

    And where`s your evidence for that?

  25. Profile photo of mylostdog
    mylostdog Female 18-29
    471 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:37 am
    I hate the blatant corruption that is the lack of separation of church and state. It is so very infuriating how people turn a blind eye to things like this, but then go running to the constitution whenever it is convenient for them. You can’t be selective about constitutional rights, it is all or nothing. I hope this soldier gets justice, god bless him. (jk, bc hes atheist) *ba dum cha* but seriously, I hate our gov`t sometimes.
  26. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:37 am
    though i dare not post the other picture i had in mind, i do have this one..
    which is funny XD


  27. Profile photo of DrJack
    DrJack Male 13-17
    184 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:38 am
    Dilldog123:
    I am working on me Eagle too. My eagle project is this Thursday and Saturday! Wanna come? Just kidding.
  28. Profile photo of plowerd
    plowerd Male 18-29
    334 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:41 am
    As much as i love this country, i do have to admit, the first amendment right is completely blown to crap a lot of the times. sure its freedom of religion..granted that religion is Christianity. if your not christian your in for some oppressing times.
  29. Profile photo of Ruswut
    Ruswut Male 18-29
    1266 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:47 am
    Christianity only has the 1 in a million chance of a bullet bouncing off your cross. Should be muslim, 5 times a day you have a chance of kneeling down and dodging a bullet to your head!
  30. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:49 am
    ^Go eat a dick.
  31. Profile photo of Foob
    Foob Male 40-49
    382 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:53 am
    personal beliefs are just that, personal.
    It`s a private matter and shouldn`t be dictated by anybody.
    Believe as you wish, it`s your right.
  32. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:04 pm
    Stuff like this pisses me off.

    This is NOT "one nation under God", as our president seems to think. The pledge, as originally written in 1892, read "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." It wasn`t until 1954, nearly 60 years later, that "under God" was shoehorned in there after a movement by religious organizations putting pressure on the government.

    This country was founded by a great mix of people, atheist and theist alike. People who saw what happens when religion runs a country. It doesn`t work. It never has, and never will. Religious freedom also means freedom FROM religion.

    Faith does not make you a better person, somehow more fit than those of us without it--if it did, prison populations in the US wouldn`t be predominately Christian. Just because a man doesn`t believe in a magic glowing sky-daddy does not mean he is unfit to lead troops into battle. R

  33. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:05 pm
    ^^ Realists bring men home again.
  34. Profile photo of aquazuba
    aquazuba Male 18-29
    426 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:07 pm
    jeez, people these days...

    maybe racism will no longer be an issue...

    religionism? hahah

  35. Profile photo of Aqausixio
    Aqausixio Female 18-29
    1397 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:10 pm
    Atheist in the army? Thats weird they are usually more intelligent then that. There are no atheist`s in foxholes because they don`t get into them in the first place.
  36. Profile photo of donthaveone
    donthaveone Male 30-39
    953 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:11 pm
    OK, so why is it everyone believes in GOD, but if you believe in Bigfoot or Aliens your crazy.

    Now you tell me which one is the bigger HOAX?

  37. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:11 pm
    I think its nice when people have something to believe in, i just wish it didnt cause so much hate, and so many arguments.
    Its not fair, humans just drat themselves over, we could have everything...and live in peace, but instead we choose to live in denial and because we cant agree to disagree, we hate each other.

    Well i dont, i just mean humans as one lol

  38. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:11 pm
    "This is NOT "one nation under God", as our president seems to think."
    -------------------------------------------

    The quote was from his FATHER.

  39. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:15 pm
    I`m an atheist.

    I also realize that most other people aren`t.

    We`re not talking about a normal job; we`re talking about people trained to kill and die for their beliefs and their country.

    I`m going to give believers a bit more respect in that case.

  40. Profile photo of deathxtra
    deathxtra Male 13-17
    2791 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:16 pm
    LMAO alice.! that made my day ;P
  41. Profile photo of astridhaze
    astridhaze Female 18-29
    738 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:17 pm
    While America has on the books religious freedom, there is still the unwritten law in many longstanding institutions that there is no other choice except Christianity.

    It`s ironic because a good number of our founding fathers were Deists, not Christians.

  42. Profile photo of deathxtra
    deathxtra Male 13-17
    2791 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:17 pm
    i`m gonna send that to all my friends
  43. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:18 pm
    I guess im an atheist too, but i like to learn, and keep an open mind about other peoples beliefs. Id never believe in it, but id listen and i can understand.
    and it sucks that people feel the need to die for their beliefs and their country, theres no logic in it, i think everyone truly wants to get along, we just cant.. its like its not even possible. :-(

    Or maybe its just the minority of people who want everyone to believe in what they believe in, who are spoiling it for the majority, like everything else.

  44. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:18 pm
    "We`re not talking about a normal job; we`re talking about people trained to kill and die for their beliefs and their country."
    ------------------------------------------------

    Patriotism has NOTHING to do with religion.

  45. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:19 pm
    lol im blabbering XD
  46. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:23 pm
    "and it sucks that people feel the need to die for their beliefs and their country, theres no logic in it,"

    Honor? Pride? Dignity? Believing that what you believe is right and your enemy is wrong, and therefore he might be a threat to your society?

    "i think everyone truly wants to get along, we just cant.."

    Oh please...

  47. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:24 pm
    El, you seem to be disagreeing with everyone here just for the sake of it lol, instead of waiting for what people say and slagging it off, why dont you tell us your beliefs?
    and..i will listen at least.
  48. Profile photo of smartbomb314
    smartbomb314 Male 13-17
    1220 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:29 pm
    i like colors!
  49. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:29 pm
    Me? Born in Bosnia, had to move to Sweden because people were chopping other peoples heads of for their religious beliefs. Raised as a Muslim, worshipped Allah until the age of 15, that`s where I started to doubt that all that could be real. My mother despises my view on religion and my father doesn`t give a crap.
  50. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:30 pm
    "Honor? Pride? Dignity? Believing that what you believe is right and your enemy is wrong, and therefore he might be a threat to your society?"

    and thats my point..i dont understand why we cant just understand each others religions, and leave each other alone.. if noone felt like their society was being threatened, then there wouldnt be a problem, would there..

  51. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:31 pm
    Thats awful :-(
    ...so why dont you agree that everyone should just lay off everyone elses beliefs... if we did there would be no war, or would there... mind you it would just cause war on some other grounds probably.
  52. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:32 pm
    Frankly, I`m not suprised. The military in this country has had a poor history protecting personnel`s religious freedom. They got their panties all in a bunch over a wiccan soldier`s request to have the pentacle carved on his tombstone.
    This increasing radicalization of the army has to be watched...
  53. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:33 pm
    Oh I agree that everyone should lay off, I just know that it`s never going to happen because humans are a pile of crap swimming around in a ocean of crap.
  54. Profile photo of smartbomb314
    smartbomb314 Male 13-17
    1220 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:34 pm
    im not crap |-(
  55. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:34 pm
    "Patriotism has NOTHING to do with religion."

    True, but some people require religion to deal with death. Theirs, their friends`, their enemies`.

    I am not surprised that soldiers, especially the grunts in the trenches, are religious as a rule.

    Like it or not, the majority of people are religious. It has been that way since we evolved into thinking beings. It is not going to change.

    People trained to die are going to be more religious than your average joe. I don`t think this is difficult to figure out.

  56. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:36 pm
    bit harsh el, we arnt all a pile of crap :-(
  57. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:38 pm
    Quite nice living in Sweden then where they estimated that around 80% are atheists.
  58. Profile photo of Normo
    Normo Male 18-29
    44 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:38 pm
    US wants to be sure that they can control at least the army through religion.. the In god we trust is slowly changing to In god we force you to trust
    watch Zeitgeist ppl!
  59. Profile photo of LoofahBoy
    LoofahBoy Male 18-29
    3301 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:38 pm
    Man, I could go for a hot dog right now. With mustard, and pickle. And a smallish bun with poppy seeds. Throw in some greasy fries and a frostee, and I`ll be in heaven!
  60. Profile photo of The_Maddog
    The_Maddog Male 30-39
    3369 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:41 pm
    This video just shows everything thats wrong with religion. Primes attitude shows everything wrong with religion. this is why i hate religion..nothing more to say
  61. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:48 pm
    I dont hate it...but i think im starting to.
    I dont want to hate it either...but its hard not to at times.
  62. Profile photo of elHadji
    elHadji Male 70 & Over
    1455 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:54 pm
    ^And what are you referring to?
  63. Profile photo of mylostdog
    mylostdog Female 18-29
    471 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 12:56 pm
    religion is good idea that has been put to the wrong use
  64. Profile photo of GothicQueen
    GothicQueen Male 13-17
    4376 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:04 pm
    why can`t people of all religions just learn to pretend to like each other?
  65. Profile photo of kenny_f
    kenny_f Male 13-17
    1825 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:09 pm
    How about you just not fight in a stupid fuc*ing war?
  66. Profile photo of yo-i-am-luke
    yo-i-am-luke Male 18-29
    626 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:14 pm
    So they are breaking alot of rules it seems...

    1st Amendment
    Army Regulations
    6th Commandment

    "Rule art made to be broken"

  67. Profile photo of hawkeye52
    hawkeye52 Male 13-17
    60 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:20 pm
    I love movie quotes. That one is definitely one of the greats.
  68. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:34 pm
    "Because of the whole religious founding of this country, and whatever else, I don`t really care."

    There was no religious founding of this country, ditz.

    "Atheist in the army? Thats weird they are usually more intelligent then that. There are no atheist`s in foxholes because they don`t get into them in the first place."

    Hear hear.

  69. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:38 pm
    From the video, it seems to me that it was the other soldiers that were mainly giving him poo, not the actual army itself.

    *avoids the flame war*

  70. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:46 pm
    Dainty, with all due respect I don`t want the radical born agains running my schoolboard, or city council, or my government for that matter.

    This being only one of those reasons why I don`t.

  71. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:56 pm
    I`m an atheist and my Christain buddies respect me enough to not make me move to a different table or make me pray with them when I eat at their house. I guess the Army just attracts more a$$holes and bigots.
  72. Profile photo of simim23
    simim23 Female 18-29
    1427 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 1:59 pm
    "Anyway, it should be pretty obvious that he doesnt deserve promotion. If you dont have the respect of the people who are shooting right beside you, you can`t lead them."

    Hey, you don`t have to pray with someone to respect them.

    And he mentioned people were like, "Do you believe in Jesus NOW?" That`s screwed up, and the exact same thing.

    Using the same guidelines, they`re not respecting him because they DO pray. XD

  73. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:06 pm
    "Atheist in the army? Thats weird they are usually more intelligent then that. There are no atheist`s in foxholes because they don`t get into them in the first place."

    So being patriotic is now considered idiotic?

  74. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:06 pm
    Thanks for your kindness."

    I`m not known for my kindness, so deal.

    "In God We Trust" and "under God" were additions made to our currency and Pledge of Allegiance, respectively, in only recent history, meaning they have *nothing* to do with the foundations of this country. Want to not be called a ditz? Learn your f*cking history before you raise an argument.

    As far as the Declaration of Independence goes, there are only two mentions of a god (God and Creator) and they`re both made in the context of where our rights come from. In no way do they pertain to any religious foundation. And so long as we`re on foundation documents, if you`d carefully read your Constitution, you`d notice the effort made to secure the United States as a secular nation, not a religious one.

    "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

    Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

  75. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:07 pm
    "Hey, you don`t have to pray with someone to respect them."

    Not in that case. In most cases sure but in war, if your not respected you cant lead. It was obvious that in that base prayer was very important. He should have switched bases

  76. Profile photo of Victory7
    Victory7 Male 18-29
    362 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:07 pm
    He`s proabably an atheist who makes it very clear that he thinks your religion is trash. Sometimes I`m ashamed to be in the same demographic as atheists. If I`m at some get-together or dinner and the majority are Christians, and they say grace for dinner or anything, I`ll do the same out of respect.

    No one has any respect these days.

  77. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:08 pm
    Holy snap! Did overmanns post jump over mine and get sandwiched in between?
  78. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:08 pm
    His initial complaint is that a meeting of atheists was distrupted by an officer and was a violation of his First Amendment rights.

    He continues that he was discriminated against by being denied promotion because of his religious views.

    First of all, in the military, you do not have the same constitutional rights as every other citizen. You only have the rights granted to you by law through regulation and policy. You can`t just say or do what you want when you want.

    That being said, it sounds like the Major was out of line in his behavior. But this is where it gets complicated...

    There are many ways to seek redress for an alleged violation of regulation or his individual rights. This includes filing an Equal Opportunity complaint, or approaching his chain of command, among others.

    He chose not to do so. Instead he went to the MRFF, in clear violation of the very regulations that could have protected him. Here, he was very wrong.

    continued....

  79. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:10 pm
    The founding of this country in relation to religion was very loose. The "founding fathers" believed that one should be able to practice their religious freedom. In fact, most of the men practiced what we would call a sort of agnosticism.

    Those things you mention, Dainty, were added in to the United States later, after it was already founded. "Under God" was added during the cold war to separate ourselves from the communists.

    So the country was founded on religious freedom, but with a touch of spirituality.

  80. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:10 pm
    I believe it was most likely that act that brought the scorn of his peers and his chain of command. That is one thing they pound into your head... use the chain of command.

    His case will likely be thrown out of court because of the very fact that he did not first attempt to use the remedies provided for by military regulations, instead choosing to do things his way.

  81. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:12 pm
    nettech, I don`t remember anything that says as soon as you join the military you lose your constitutional rights. Sure, the military has rules +regulations, but so do the States. And none of the States laws override the Constitution.
  82. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:13 pm
    "In fact, most of the men practiced what we would call a sort of agnosticism."

    Deist? They were still christian but christian deist

  83. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:14 pm
    On another note, on the founding of this country as a Christian nation...I`m sure the Indians would sure be suprised!
  84. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:14 pm
    Queen, yes they do lose rights. I have family members in the military.

    You lose many rights such as protesting (even family members do), and strikes, etc.

  85. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:16 pm
    Somebody call the ACLU!!!
  86. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:19 pm
    "If I`m at some get-together or dinner and the majority are Christians, and they say grace for dinner or anything, I`ll do the same out of respect. No one has any respect these days."

    Indeed, not even the religionists. What I don`t understand is why respecting their beliefs must take precedence over them respecting my lack of belief. If I don`t want to say grace or bow my head and mumble to the sky, there should be no pressure from their part for me to do so. I`m perfectly capable of showing respect, I just choose not to when it means contradicting my own views.

  87. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:21 pm
    You want to call them "more restrictive rights"? Can you be fined or put in jail if you don`t do what your boss tells you? Or if you don`t show up for work? Or quit? How about if you tell him to go pound salt? Sounds like "free speech" to me...

    The list goes on...

  88. Profile photo of JBenni
    JBenni Male 18-29
    19 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:22 pm
    2:09 minute mark FTW
    SUCK IT
  89. Profile photo of LemonTarte
    LemonTarte Female 18-29
    1441 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:26 pm
    ^^well said Overmann.
  90. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:35 pm
    Prime: Deism is closer to agnosticism or even atheism than to mainstream christianity. That`s why it`s dead.
  91. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:45 pm
    How many wars have been fought in the name of religion? How many basic human rights have been oppressed in the name of religion? How many people have been put to death because of their beliefs?

    The ones I love are when the splinter groups start killing each other... Protestants versus Catholics, Sunnis versus Shiites, etc. They all believe in the same God, but just have some different views. So they kill each other. In the name of their God.

    Gotta love religion!

  92. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:45 pm
    Deism just means you believe there is a god who doesn`t take part in everyday life. You still believe (in the fore founders case) in Christian Principles and that there is a heaven and hell but that Miracles dont exist
  93. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:47 pm
    "How many wars have been fought in the name of religion? How many basic human rights have been oppressed in the name of religion? How many people have been put to death because of their beliefs?"
    Replace with Communism.
    Or Money.
    Or Land

    Stays the same.

  94. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 2:58 pm
    True prime! But we`re flaming about religion... lol...

    And you`ve got to admit, religion - unlike the others you list - usually hold human life in high regard. "Thou shall not kill", etc... So it seems especially hypocritical if nothing else.

  95. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 3:03 pm
    Prime: No miracles, faith is not important, the bible is not the revealed word of God, no orignial sin, and no Jesus (divinely speaking historically he was a real person). In fact, most deists hated Christianity as much, if not more, than any atheist seeing being founded on superstition rather than rational principals. So no most deists were not Christains though they believed in God. Just like Jews and Muslims belive in the same God that Christains do but are not themselves Christains. This of course led the Christains to accuse them all of being atheists, which most probably became. Though I think Unitarians are deists. Do we have any Unitarians here who can shed some light on this?
  96. Profile photo of ohthedrama
    ohthedrama Male 30-39
    162 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 3:09 pm
    "I`m not surprised, really.
    Because of the whole religious founding of this country, and whatever else, I don`t really care.

    And what political(?) figure was it who said something along the lines of: "If you didn`t believe in god, then you aren`t a true American."..?

    I don`t remember who it was, or maybe I`m just making things up.
    Though it sure sounds like someone some nutjob would say."

    Well America was founded on Protestant beliefs (actually extreme Protestantism, Calvinists and Quakers). America is basically a Christian country. Yes the constitution says freedom of religion but with all due respect I have a feeling the founding fathers were talking about Christianity as a whole and they were not thinking about other religions. Remember even though it says All men created equal, Slaves were most certainly not equal in America.

  97. Profile photo of tayreed
    tayreed Male 13-17
    243 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 3:15 pm
    thou shalt not murder.. nettech..., thou shalt not murder...
  98. Profile photo of patthebaker
    patthebaker Male 18-29
    1768 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 3:24 pm
    It probably dosnt make a difference but when i used to go to a church youth group they told us that the whole thou shalt not murder thing actually means not to hate your fellow man.
  99. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 4:31 pm
    That`s the word, Prime. Thanks.
  100. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 4:58 pm
    Ya know, I just realized something. We`re all treating each other with respect! We are having a mature conversation about religion + politics and no one yet has been killed!
    Nice job everyone!
    *Hugs and handshakes all round*
  101. Profile photo of kalela
    kalela Female 18-29
    195 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 5:55 pm
    "FLAME ON" Hahaha, I remember that.

    Anyway, I don`t think USA can call itself a free country and limit religious boundaries.

  102. Profile photo of ggolbez
    ggolbez Male 18-29
    1933 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 6:34 pm
    Good to know that some people in the news cares about the constitution.
  103. Profile photo of duckinfuh
    duckinfuh Male 18-29
    891 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 6:35 pm
    i did 4 years in the marine corps (march 03-07) and was (and currently) very openly atheist. i never felt discriminated against.

    i caught sh_t once in a while from my peers and superiors, but nothing that ever made me feel like i was being punished or anything for it. but that pretty much just comes with being atheist, i guess.

  104. Profile photo of ballin462
    ballin462 Male 13-17
    61 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 7:30 pm
    DAINTY... I think i love you
  105. Profile photo of thesandwich
    thesandwich Male 18-29
    150 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 7:33 pm
    i do think this is sad, yes everyone is allowed to their beliefs, and is by all right allowed not to like that belief, they don`t have to go out and do something about it, but they can just not like it, like i don`t children

    as for the whole "christian nation" it is true that a majority of americans are christian, there are many branches of christianity, but still they are united on the idea of Jesus

    But the country is set up to be secular, and the reason why the founding fathers did set it up, was because they went to America, enduring many hardships, fought a great war against a tyranical leader who wanted to control their thoughts, their land, their beliefs, and control of weapons. After they just finished fighting such a tyrant they set up the Bill of Rights, so everyone can speak what they want, defend themselves, and are protecting from spread search warrants (the right of search and seizure). And sadly that view is being lost in my opinion.

  106. Profile photo of Serio
    Serio Male 13-17
    68 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 8:51 pm
    ... This make the US Army no better than the Nazis.
  107. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 8:53 pm
    That soldier has a God given right to be an atheist if that`s what he wants to be.
  108. Profile photo of patthebaker
    patthebaker Male 18-29
    1768 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 9:14 pm
    "... This make the US Army no better than the Nazis."


    You cant tell the difference?

  109. Profile photo of ricki24
    ricki24 Female 13-17
    244 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 9:21 pm
    Not only does this make Christians look bad, but the Army too. The guy probably did/said something disrespectful to the other troops, and they might have asked him to stop, and he didn`t, and it escalates...just one of many possible scenarios(sp? I`m dumb today). I`m not taking any sides, because I was of no part of the issue....as of yet.
    Life is just getting soooo out of hand...*shrugs*
  110. Profile photo of ricki24
    ricki24 Female 13-17
    244 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 9:40 pm
    "... This make the US Army no better than the Nazis."

    WHAT??? What on earth does the US Army have ANYTHING in common with the Nazis???
    US Army Saves. The Nazis killed.
    *thinks*
    Gee...hmm...nope, can`t find anything in common. Sorry.

  111. Profile photo of Resop
    Resop Male 18-29
    60 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 9:48 pm
    Patthebaker, I love your response.
  112. Profile photo of stabbykill
    stabbykill Male 18-29
    26 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 10:21 pm
    Right that is IT. Read what I`m typing very carefully because most of the posts are absolute rubbish. :)

    The U.S. army has serious issues, and that`s an understatement. Yes, we can beg the question "where does the line get drawn" when it comes to religious issues, but then again a TRUE christian would NEVER, if given the option, sign up to kill people in Iraq. Fair enough if it`s conscription or defending your own country, but going out to invade another country? You can`t even argue with that (and don`t get me started on the motives for attacking the country).

    Having to pray before meals? Wow, at least these poorly-practising christians can redeem themselves somewhat, but DRAGGING others along to it, forcing them to join in if they want to get promoted... people aren`t even given the choice of becoming sheep nowadays, they`re forced to.

    How can you argue with the issue of -having- to commit a religious act so as to get fair treatment? Half the people here need to wake

  113. Profile photo of i-am-emo
    i-am-emo Female 70 & Over
    1264 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 10:22 pm
    The Sixth Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill

    F*ckin hypocrites

  114. Profile photo of stabbykill
    stabbykill Male 18-29
    26 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 10:33 pm
    up.

    Also, pictures mean nothing. They are a good contrast, Patthebaker, but it really doesn`t mean anything when the U.S. Army is notorious (like almost every other country) for its media propoganda. Even if it wasn`t staged (I`m inclined to say this is genuine), you do the usual biased thing and ignore the images of americans torturing and burning civilians.

    I`m not being biased here - I`m NOT saying "oh every american soldier is a crazed blood-fuelled masochist because I saw it on Fahrenheit 911" but I despise the blind statements people make like Patthebakers because it`s such a childish train of thought.

    I get approached by self-acclaimed "proper" Christian folk who campaign on the streets regularly, and it`s like talking to a brick wall. They never expect me to argue their points and when I make a good point, they simply ignore me and change the topic. I`ve always found -really- religious people to be fascinating as they have the most closed minds on the

  115. Profile photo of stabbykill
    stabbykill Male 18-29
    26 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 10:42 pm
    planet.

    They tell us to open our minds and embrace their religion? I will NOT (including this site) listen to anyone who hasn`t at least tried more than one religion. The reason being they have nothing to compare their religion to, and the fact they have such a blind faith (most likely induced by parents, a fear of death, or someone dying i.e. a hope to see them again) and thus makes any attempts at debate with them like talking to a brick wall.

    By all means, I know and like many people who follow their own religious beliefs - as a way to better themselves, because they like to think there`s life after death or simply because they enjoy it - and thats great! :)

    It`s when people force it upon others, or make them uncomfortable to do so, that makes me DESPISE them as people. I`ve studied the U.S.A. and its religion at University in the UK, and am amazed at the cult-like (think of the Masons) tendencies it`s showing. And hardly anyone even sees it. (expecting rants now)

  116. Profile photo of idiotkiller
    idiotkiller Male 13-17
    162 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:01 pm
    thanks for beating me to the punch, pat

  117. Profile photo of dracokain
    dracokain Male 18-29
    266 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:44 pm
    Seperation of church and state is the biggest lie I have ever heard in my life. Thats all I have to say on things like this
  118. Profile photo of dracokain
    dracokain Male 18-29
    266 posts
    August 16, 2008 at 11:47 pm
    Also Ricki24, you say you`re not taking sides but in your post you stated the scenario that makes the atheist the person who started the whole thing =/
  119. Profile photo of dragonshadoz
    dragonshadoz Female 18-29
    4031 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 3:39 am
    "I`m going to threaten to kill you because you don`t believe in God!"
    How very Christian...
  120. Profile photo of Ziminya
    Ziminya Female 30-39
    1 post
    August 17, 2008 at 6:28 am
    I was in the army for over 10 years and had several atheists in my unit. They were never discriminated against or passed over for promotion. Sometimes commanders overstep their authority and push a personal agenda onto their troops. It`s against DoD policy and can poison the working relationship of an entire unit. I don`t know how much responsibility the Department of the Army should take in this, but SPC Hall`s immediate command is definitely at fault for creating an intolerant atmosphere and allowing discriminatory behavior to continue.
  121. Profile photo of Trabenbass51
    Trabenbass51 Male 18-29
    13 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 7:42 am
    ...WOW...

    i hate the army... and religion...

  122. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 8:12 am
    Dulce et Decorum Est.
  123. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 9:04 am
    People like this can give atheists a bad name.

    I dislike outspoken atheists just as much as I dislike outspoken people of religion.

    If the majority of your unit is religious, you need to respect that. A couple minutes of bowing your head isn`t going to hurt you.

    I`m an atheist, yet I wouldn`t want to damage unit morale by being an as.shole about it.

  124. Profile photo of dragonshadoz
    dragonshadoz Female 18-29
    4031 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 9:07 am
    If you`d be willing to respect their wishes, Baelzar, shouldn`t they be willing to do the same? Just because they are in the majority, does not mean you have to go along with their beliefs.
  125. Profile photo of Benjaphar
    Benjaphar Male 30-39
    108 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 9:21 am
    Baelzar,

    So why is religion off limits? I can criticize your politics, your taste in movies or music, your scientific theories, your conspiracy theories, but for some reason I have to show respect for your superstitions? That`s not the way it should be.

  126. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 9:27 am
    So...bowing your head for 2 minutes is going to kill you.

    Seriously. Bowing your head is going to make you believe in some god?

    Bowing your head for a couple of minutes, to get along and keep the peace, is going to destroy your atheism?

    Atheism, to me, means I DO NOT get offended at the small stuff like that. Let the religious people freak out. Not me.

    Because that`s what we`re talking about here. This kid (an ex-Baptist, for crying out loud) wouldn`t BOW HIS FRIGGIN` HEAD while others prayed.

    This makes atheists look as bad as the born-agains. You have to go along to get along, ESPECIALLY in the military.

  127. Profile photo of Benjaphar
    Benjaphar Male 30-39
    108 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 10:07 am
    Yes, bow your head to my god or else! If it`s the Christian god then you`ll burn in hell for eternity. If it`s Allah you won`t bow to, then I`ll just have to chop off your head. But please, whatever you do, don`t make waves and upset the zealots by pointing out that their imaginary sky-daddy is neither real, nor worthy of bowing to.
  128. Profile photo of FreshMint
    FreshMint Male 18-29
    181 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 10:44 am
    It is just not possible not to associate wars in Iraq with Holy war when you supposely fight `mulsulmans` (only tiny fraction are extremists) and your President close every single speech with `God bless America` and talk about the `Evil`...

    C`mon, everybody can make that link -and it`s pretty obvious.

  129. Profile photo of FreshMint
    FreshMint Male 18-29
    181 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 10:48 am
    Baelzar, would you simulate any Mulsulman praying posture just to do like everybody else?

    You probably wouldn`t, so why are you asking others to simulute yours?

    Army is about mutual respect, mutual support and collective objective achievement. You can do that wihtout any sort of belief.

    Because you don`t believe in God you don`t deserve your army mates respect and support?

  130. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 11:14 am
    We don`t need to pose hypothetical situations here. We have specifics of this one.

    Army is about killing things and destroying property. People who kill other people tend to have strict codes they adhere to; stricter than the general public.

    Again, I`m an atheist (you seem to have missed that above) so I do not take religion seriously. I would bow my head for the same reason I would get a unit tattoo or say "oorah" or do any other silly thing that is traditional.

    I`m an atheist, and I can wrap my head around this concept: unit before individual.

  131. Profile photo of FreshMint
    FreshMint Male 18-29
    181 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 12:44 pm
    Except that Army isn`t supposed to be religious by rules for the same concept: Unit before Individual.
  132. Profile photo of dragonshadoz
    dragonshadoz Female 18-29
    4031 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 1:46 pm
    So...bowing your head for 2 minutes is going to kill you.And someone not bowing their head is going to kill you?
  133. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 3:06 pm
    "If the majority of your unit is religious, you need to respect that. A couple minutes of bowing your head isn`t going to hurt you."

    The whole point of religious freedom is that you can believe what you like without having to conform to any other religion.

  134. Profile photo of Dragoliz
    Dragoliz Female 13-17
    93 posts
    August 17, 2008 at 6:26 pm
    Someone further back said that ruling by religion doesn`t work. Some places that is true. But ruling by pure atheism, died miserably. Communism set up by Lenin was completely Athiest, had they eased back on religion perhaps there would be more communist nations doing it right. Only Cuba has managed that and it is extremely poor because USA refuses to trade with it. People should not discriminate against others because of what they believe. We need unity. I have atheist friends and Christian friends. (I am Christian myself)and I don`t raise the matter with my atheist comrades. Easy. We respect each others rights to believe w/e we want.
  135. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    August 18, 2008 at 10:26 am
    Another stupid thing about this case: The guy started an "atheist club" or something?

    WTF do we need meetings for? Worship of the fact we don`t need to worship?

    Let the kool-aid drinkers have their churches; forming an Atheist Club was just pouring gas on the fire.

  136. Profile photo of lololeela
    lololeela Female 30-39
    327 posts
    August 18, 2008 at 10:45 am
    I`m an atheist and I was in the army and spent a year in Iraq. I didn`t feel discriminated against. If there was something religious going on, I just didn`t participate. How other soldiers responded to me depended on the soldier. One christian soldier made a case to the higher ups that those who don`t attend a church service should NOT be made to clean the barracks instead, which they almost made us do. So, most of the theists were totally cool. I only spoke out about my atheism when I was asked about my beliefs. Otherwise, I figured it was nobody`s business.
  137. Profile photo of taelmx
    taelmx Female 18-29
    247 posts
    August 19, 2008 at 4:25 am
    I think I may have that image that somebody was too afraid to put up...lemme find it...I`ll put it in one of the next few posts...
  138. Profile photo of taelmx
    taelmx Female 18-29
    247 posts
    August 19, 2008 at 4:31 am
    Is this the one you were talking about?
  139. Profile photo of TheGrag
    TheGrag Male 13-17
    1497 posts
    August 20, 2008 at 11:11 am
    ""There are no Atheist in Fox Holes"

    Great line."

    Gotta love M*A*S*H*. xD

  140. Profile photo of stabbykill
    stabbykill Male 18-29
    26 posts
    September 3, 2008 at 2:41 am
    planet.

    They tell us to open our minds and embrace their religion? I will NOT (including this site) listen to anyone who hasn`t at least tried more than one religion. The reason being they have nothing to compare their religion to, and the fact they have such a blind faith (most likely induced by parents, a fear of death, or someone dying i.e. a hope to see them again) and thus makes any attempts at debate with them like talking to a brick wall.

    By all means, I know and like many people who follow their own religious beliefs - as a way to better themselves, because they like to think there`s life after death or simply because they enjoy it - and thats great! :)

    It`s when people force it upon others, or make them uncomfortable to do so, that makes me DESPISE them as people. I`ve studied the U.S.A. and its religion at University in the UK, and am amazed at the cult-like (think of the Masons) tendencies it`s showing. And hardly anyone even sees it. (expecting rants now)

  141. Profile photo of stabbykill
    stabbykill Male 18-29
    26 posts
    September 21, 2008 at 3:59 am
    planet.

    They tell us to open our minds and embrace their religion? I will NOT (including this site) listen to anyone who hasn`t at least tried more than one religion. The reason being they have nothing to compare their religion to, and the fact they have such a blind faith (most likely induced by parents, a fear of death, or someone dying i.e. a hope to see them again) and thus makes any attempts at debate with them like talking to a brick wall.

    By all means, I know and like many people who follow their own religious beliefs - as a way to better themselves, because they like to think there`s life after death or simply because they enjoy it - and thats great! :)

    It`s when people force it upon others, or make them uncomfortable to do so, that makes me DESPISE them as people. I`ve studied the U.S.A. and its religion at University in the UK, and am amazed at the cult-like (think of the Masons) tendencies it`s showing. And hardly anyone even sees it. (expecting rants now)

  142. Profile photo of stabbykill
    stabbykill Male 18-29
    26 posts
    October 8, 2008 at 10:26 am
    planet.

    They tell us to open our minds and embrace their religion? I will NOT (including this site) listen to anyone who hasn`t at least tried more than one religion. The reason being they have nothing to compare their religion to, and the fact they have such a blind faith (most likely induced by parents, a fear of death, or someone dying i.e. a hope to see them again) and thus makes any attempts at debate with them like talking to a brick wall.

    By all means, I know and like many people who follow their own religious beliefs - as a way to better themselves, because they like to think there`s life after death or simply because they enjoy it - and thats great! :)

    It`s when people force it upon others, or make them uncomfortable to do so, that makes me DESPISE them as people. I`ve studied the U.S.A. and its religion at University in the UK, and am amazed at the cult-like (think of the Masons) tendencies it`s showing. And hardly anyone even sees it. (expecting rants now)

  143. Profile photo of stabbykill
    stabbykill Male 18-29
    26 posts
    October 16, 2008 at 7:59 pm
    planet.

    They tell us to open our minds and embrace their religion? I will NOT (including this site) listen to anyone who hasn`t at least tried more than one religion. The reason being they have nothing to compare their religion to, and the fact they have such a blind faith (most likely induced by parents, a fear of death, or someone dying i.e. a hope to see them again) and thus makes any attempts at debate with them like talking to a brick wall.

    By all means, I know and like many people who follow their own religious beliefs - as a way to better themselves, because they like to think there`s life after death or simply because they enjoy it - and thats great! :)

    It`s when people force it upon others, or make them uncomfortable to do so, that makes me DESPISE them as people. I`ve studied the U.S.A. and its religion at University in the UK, and am amazed at the cult-like (think of the Masons) tendencies it`s showing. And hardly anyone even sees it. (expecting rants now)

  144. Profile photo of schnarre
    schnarre Male 30-39
    22 posts
    November 20, 2009 at 1:56 am
    Vid`s been removed. *grrrr*

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