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LOL Please she`s made a small step who the whole world and thank god the judge allowed it for those who know what it`s like.
At twelve, you can barely decide what you want to do over the summer, let alone decide what GENDER you want to be!
That judge is not right in the head. >.<
Fact; Most T/S people are aware very early in life useually by age 5 - 6
Fact; Left untreated a T/S person will suffer long term depression, anxiety attacks, severe anger, many times do poorly in school, broken relationships, greatly increased risk of suicide. Treated a T/S person will go on to have a normal productive life, the suicide rate drops below the national averages.
personally, i don`t agree with surgery that "corrects" your appearance when its not really necessary (that includes sex changes, plastic surgery for a victim in a serious fire is not included in that) But you cant always change other peoples opinions with your own. oh well. :-|
But he is taking hormone blockers, not hormones. Hormones are partly irreversible, and have all the things you say.But hormone blockers are reversible.
Hormone blockers can only be taken, for FtM`s, at age 12 max. It has to be done before puberty, obviously, if it`s going to delay puberty. Puberty is irreversible. My puberty was at age 11. So I don`t think he is at all early in his decision.
Then again, there are lots of cases of people who get gender reassignment surgery, who go back to the gender they were born.Which makes me wonder if they actually thought it through.How could you have life changing surgery, and then decide it was a mistake?
just my prediction
By that argument we should do away with the whole of psychology and counseling. But, for the sake of argument, let`s say you`re right. There is no possible way for her to be reconciled with her natural body (and I use feminine pronouns despite it being politically incorrect because it`s the truth of the matter, which I value above anyone`s personal feelings). Where do you draw the line? If I was born with the idea that I was actually a dolphin, and I could not be reconciled through therapy, should I try to have some transformational operation?
Now, you may say that she`s not trying to change her species, which I think any of us would think is ridiculous. But, if I truly could not be happy in a human body, would I have the same support? If not, by what right do you place her pain and suffering over mine? If so, we`re just going to have agree to disagree.
It is a physically problem. It is that the physical side does not match the mental side. They both don`t match up. It`s not because he`s mental. You can`t change someone`s mind, but you can change their body.
He, at an early age, will have delayed his female puberty. When he is older and can make an informed decision, he really is going to look like a he.
I am not.
I would argue that a superficial change, while it can in fact make her feel better, ignores the underlying mental condition. Unless that is dealt with in a proper manner, I wager she`ll run into more problems further down the road.
Most of you need to learn the difference between sex (physical) and gender (mental). They do not always match. When they don`t, the most logical step is to match the body to the mind, rather than vice versa--because trying to match the mind to the body does not work.
As the child of a transsexual mother, I find the whole explanation ending in "eunuchs on drugs" horribly offensive.
And bringing god into this is ridiculous. If there is a god, I think he`d want people to live in a way that made them happy, rather than suffer in the wrong body their entire lives. Oh, wait, I forgot who I`m talking about. God likes suffering.
I feel sorry for the kid in question here.
Forgetting the physical attributes for a minute, genetically speaking, she`s a she. Now she may really believe she`s a boy, but believing something doesn`t make it so. I will concede she is going through something very difficult that few of us can even begin to understand, but I do know that no amount of surgery is going to change those two X`s in her body.
Yes, it`s a medical condition, but I`d say that the surgery itself is more a delusion than anything. She`s going to look in the mirror and feel better, but it won`t change the fact that by any genetic test she`s still a girl. If all you`re concerned with is her feelings, then by all means let her have the surgery.
For those of you who can`t seem to grasp this truth, if a child is born with a penis, that child is a boy. If a child is born with a vagina, that child is a girl.If a child with a penis thinks he is a girl, that child has a delusion. If a man has his penis and testicles surgically removed he does not become a woman. He becomes a eunuch. If he takes drugs to make his breast grow, he is a eunuch on drugs.
The child does not have a birth defect. She has a psychological disorder. A vagina is not a birth defect.
1. What he is doing is reversible2. He has been like this since he was a little girl at a very young age3. It is very stressful going through puberty in the wrong body.
Another thing.Don`t take the self-harms as whinging. If you think it`s so easy, think about if you could go and pick up a knife, and make youself bleed. You`d probably find that you can`t bring yourself to do it. (This is hypothetically speaking. Please DON`T try to do this.)Self-harm isn`t a way to blackmail people, it is a way to keep yourself afloat in a terrible situation.
He`s going through a hell of a lot at such a young age, so can`t you just be happy that there`s one step in progress that means that he doesn`t have to go through puberty in the wrong body, and may actually have a normal life as a male (unlike some people *points at self*)
The world should know how dangerous any type of eugenics is. We saw it with Hitler, hell, we saw it in the U.S. Sure it can help with a psychological problem but it can also ignore many social or ethical ramifications.
I`m sure the doctors and experts were not corrupt and looking to destroy the world. All I`m saying, one day, we could be in a situation where that is not the case, and science and medical technology could be used to "cure" people. Hitler had his expert doctors, and we`re naive to believe it can never happen again.
You are even more ignorant
You are ignorant. You are confusing sex with gender. Get some education and then come back and lecture people.
and maybe this case was made to feel as a male, even though physically a female? Whatever the reason may be, perhaps this is the preordained path that was laid out?
Maybe, the seeking out of this, and the eventual sexual reassignment surgery, is this `perfection` you speak of for this particular individual?
We can`t truly know.
Hell, my left foot could be bigger than my right, but does that mean that it wasn`t supposed to be?
We were made the way we are for a reason, whatever that may be.
Both of these selves posses an aspect called gender, but there is not necessarily any correlation between the gender reflected in the mind and the one in the body.
So, the girl (as I tend to think that physical gender is the one that should be referred to in polite conversation), when he is older and wiser might be happier and more comfortable as the creature that she was when she sprung forth into the world, but childhood is a time of heavy emotion and she`s not even into the worst of it yet, so for christsake let the kid do whatever he wants, it`s his damn body.
IMO, it`s like not participating in Gym class because you feel that you can`t (AKA Shut up and run).
To be born the wrong gender is `horror`. To feel a stranger grow around you, completely alien to who you are is `horror`. To have to spend every moment of your life knowing that you are wrong, that is `horror`. To have to cut and make yourself bleed in pain to drag yourself out of the desperation and misery, that is true `horror`.Don`t trivialise it, because it really is that bad.
THis case will be sort of like an experiment, and we`ll see in 10 years time if he will be happy being a boy, or if it`s just a phase. He`s willing to undergo the procedure, so it is in no way irresponsible or whatever.
Whatever happens in a couple of years time will support either the "wrong body" camp or the "bad parenting" camp.
Go for it! No experiments without sacrifices!
Don`t forget rap music
The above is an actual cat. I know it`s dressed as a frog and some of you may find that confusing, but nevertheless, I think you`ll find that biologically, it`s a cat.
Incidentally, I`m a Pegasus really, I`m just in the wrong body.
It won`t change her genes. She won`t be able to have kids as a boy. She doesn`t produce sperm. She doesn`t have a Y chromosome. She`s not a "biological" boy.
She has a sculpted penis is all, and some forced biological changes.
A girl wearing a strapon and a fake beard is not suddenly a man, and people with gender reassignment are not suddenly a different gender. It`s make believe until science can do it properly.
Also, if I "felt I was supposed to be a girl" or vice versa. I don`t think I`d particularly care.... I don`t get why the hell some people are going "Imagine... imagine the HORROR".
Also, if my kids start doing the whole "Get me or porsche or I`ll kill myself" "Let me smoke or I`ll kill myself" "Let me get breast implants or I`ll kill myself" I`ll assume there`s a problem like a good parent, and not fall in line like a bad.
why do i need glasses then?
also I`m not sure why this case in particular is such a big deal, they only approved the treatment because they knew it was reversible
Ninja-nerd, firstly don`t worry because she can`t do anything permanent yet, just hortmone blockers to prevent puberty, which is reversible.
Secondly, the god making perfect beings? You tell a blind person that they shouldn`t support finding cures for blinds, as god made you perfect, so you shouldn`t be able to see. We are definetly not made perfect.
Personally, I don`t worry about what people do with their own bodies, that`s up to them. However, this is not like getting a random piercing, or scarification, or tattooing. This is even more permanent.
Sure, the child may feel more comfortable as a "male" but will never truly be a male, and certainly others will be put off by this: look in the paper, people seem to be ashamed if they have... erm... spent the night with people such as "shemales" etc.
This is definitely not cosmetic, but a psychological thing (Notice I did not say problem). This is how she may feel now, but in a few years, she may feel completely different, and then again, she may not. I do believe that 12 is too young.
On the religious side, God made you the way you are, he created the "perfect being". Therefore there is no possibility for a mistake.
Now if it`s all a "hey, I wanna change my gender because, screw you! that`s why" kind of thing...I`m cool...like I said to each their own...I guess I`m not convinced of people being born with the wrong parts.
But since this girl has been seeing a psychaiatrist and they say that this is the right thing whatever right?
I just hope this girl knows what she`s doing. From the age of 4 to 12 I had my heart on a lot of things too. I was definitely someone else at that age.
At least this process is reversible in case she realizes that this isn`t what she wants.
I do have a knowledge of myself without the looking at the genitalia...but we already decided there`s more to it than that.
If I changed over night what would I do? I`d probably be convinced on what everyone has been saying about the hormones in milk these days...it`s hard to make that connection tho...because this little girl is not changing naturally...she is getting help with it.
Ok, then you are male with a male brain, yes?
Would you like to be female? If you woke up tomorrow and had suddenly grown breasts, would you keep them? If you changed fully overnight into a female, then what would you do? What if you were yourself, but with breasts and a vagina from the day you were born?
You must have some knowledge of yourself, without looking down to check your genitals, that you are male. And that is the same way that I, and the 12 year old, both know that we are male.
I`m actually asking in all seriousness...it`s kind of an interesting topic...I`m trying not to insult anyone...I`m glad there`s folks who have first hand experience with this to have a discussion.
The fact is that we do not know all the facts of this case and you can guarantee that such a decision would not have been taken lightly by the judges or doctors as it probably sets a precedence. They are trained professionals and quoting one expert with a differing opinion about this issue is not representative of general medical opinion. This is an incredibly complex issue and I dont think anyone here has the right to judge the girl, her family or the experts involved unless they happen to have a PHD in psychiatry, specialising in Gender Dysmorphia.
FYI there is a condition where people feel they shouldnt be in possession of a certain limb and may try and get it removed. its called Apotemnophilia
Idiocy. Plain and simple.
OH I know science absolutely can make someone a biological boy...but the fact is until that happens...she is most certainly a girl...by definition....thats the point I`m making
It`s not society that makes her a girl...it`s biology...that`s it.
Now...I don`t want to say I`m against an operation like this cause it doesn`t matter to me...i dont agree with it...but hell...when does that stop folks from doing a lot of things...to each their own. Can you answer this tho...this is the part I dont get...if you`re born with all the parts...not just the obvious ones...the hormones, and whatever else it is that biologically make someone the gender they are, what in fact is it that makes people think they`re in the wrong body?
Actually, thanks to science He can be a biological boy. :)
DavidC, so many at the age of 4 already know they are the wrong gender. What`s surprising about someone wanting it the age of 12?
Neil, in the same way, however much you call him a her, it won`t change reality. He is a he, whatever society does to him.
Wow..i butchered that one
I think we get the situation...SHE may feel like she is a boy...fine whatever...that doesnt make her one. I can call an apple a banana all day long...doesn`t change the fact it`s a apple. If she wants to whatever it to make her feel like a dude...that fine...her choice, but that fact is...she is a female...its that simple...
He feels he was born in a girls body, He does not feel like, and will never feel like he was ever a she. He does not want to start a period and have breasts, because that`s not what boys have or do. How would you feel if you were a boy and had a vagina, or a girl and had a penis? Wouldn`t like it, would you? It`s not just some crazy phase he is going through. And to the person who said something about putting him in an institution, Yeah, that`s a great idea, let`s punish him because of it! ..for you extra stupid people, that last sentence was called sarcasm.
And I have been self-harming once per day at the worst times, ran away for a few hours late one night, and went suicidal (without any attempts - i self harmed to keep myself alive).
Fortunately for him, he doesn`t have to go through all of that.
Did you lot notice something else?"The judge said that while the initial treatment was reversible, it needed to be seen as the first step in a process which, if continued, would allow the girl to live as a man."
"...penis cannot be performed before the age of 18. "
He is having completely reversible things done. For another 6 years, he CAN`T have surgery. He can still be a she, if he should decide so in a few years time, and then have a normal female puberty.
shut up. when you don`t know what you`re talking about, just shut up.
On another note...the thing that stood out to me the most is that she threatened to harm herself...it`s probably an empty threat...I say this only because anyone who is afraid of menstruation and boobs is probably too chicken poo to do anything too harmful...sounds like someone just need attention...but what do I know...I`m just speculating like the rest of the geniuses on here....even the ones with the long hair...
It`s similar though. Both parents are still alive, and the mother was disappointed in her being a girl, so brought her up as a boy, buying boy clothes etc. The reason they went to court was not to get permission for the change, but rather a legal battle between the mother and father.
164 Posts Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:19:30 AMwitchawitcha.. a sex change is not just `getting a penis` and..she is willing to HARM HERSELF. who says, if they didnt allow it, that she would last to 18yrs old without killing herself?
oh, and underage drinking and smoking is illegal, a sex change, however (especially if accepted by a judge) is not.----------------------------------------------obviously u didnt read my other comment, i suggested that she be put in an institute that can help her if she is seriously going to harm herself. there IS methods of helping this poor girl! she needs to wait it out for a few years, and see what she thinks of it when shes an adult and can think for herself. do you honestly think that i could be ignorant enough to think that a sex change is JUST getting a penis? in my opinion what this girl needs isnt the emotional/mental baggage of being turned into a man before shes able to think for herself. thats all im saying.
It`s like Drugs (Another discussionmaybe, but in this case i thinkthe same), if people do it anyway,the LEGALIZE IT!!! Sell it undercontrolated amounts, purity
I mean... If people is going to dosomething, even if it`s ilegal, thenit`s better to legalize it and havea control over that
But hey, read this:"Alex - whose condition doctors callgender identity dysphoria - beats boysat arm wrestling, and is attracted togirls, the court heard."
Isn`t this the ESCENSE of sexualityright now? Not because of what youlook like, but because of what youfeel?
I agree if this is not temporal,if this is what She is, then it`s ok
Here`s the other article:http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/1...
And they probe that it isn`t justa confusion...
THEN GO FOR IT!!!There are alot of close mindedpeople who think that the worldhas to be only the way they areor want it to be
a sex change is not just `getting a penis` and..she is willing to HARM HERSELF. who says, if they didnt allow it, that she would last to 18yrs old without killing herself?
oh, and underage drinking and smoking is illegal, a sex change, however (especially if accepted by a judge) is not.
exactly right! i have experienced the exact same thing. thanks for bringing that up, Shellie
P.S. sorry for the long comment(s) :P
here`s an example. say...a child is exceptionally skinny. not quite anorexic but very skinny. then, say she gets teased at school by the other, bigger kids in her grade and gets pushed around a lot because of her slimmer body. then, the child gets the idea of putting on some weight to help this problem. should the parents be able to decide if she can put on the weight? even if a teacher and principal agree? (contd)
This is not about "confusion" ora little girl who is not confortablewith her body
This is a sexual issue, that hasan organic element. It`s not likesomebody with Anorexy or somethinglike that, that needs help withher perception about herself
This is something that SHE IS...I want to think at least, the articleneed a little explication about ifshe has a Doctor suporting her orshe is just asking for it withoutany kind of tests
Maybe i can`t explain it totallyclear, but that`s because thisis not my original language.Sucks when you can`t put intowords what you are thinking, nowimagine trying that in anotherlanguage
Besides, since when have you heard a gay or transgendered man say "I knew I was different when I was 30"? They all say they knew they were "in the wrong body" from a very young age. I went to school with a gay guy, and you could tell he was gay when we were in grade 2!
probably the most appropriate quote for this article. why the hell should we be able to teach children that surgery can cure your problems? it cant! so why should we bother lying? if her mental illness is strong enough that she is a threat to herself, then like ANYBODY NORMAL she should be put in an institute to help her get better instead of offering her surgery!
Methodological Problems in AssessingSex-Reassignment Surgery:A Reply to Meyer and Reter
Dr. Meyer: "My personal feeling is that surgery is not a proper treatment for a psychiatric disorder and it`s clear to me that these patients have severe psychological problems that don`t go away following surgery."
ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!???I`ve never seen such an out of contextexample. Do you really think thatdeciding your own gender it`s likeloosing an arm?
Are you really that close minded?It`s like telling me that havingmy hair that long is like a girlgrowing a penis
It`s like you have a toumor...If you know you don`t want that onyour body, then it`s better to takeit off, right?
Well, this is the same. She doesn`twants to be a girl, with the properscientific aprobal that says it isn`tjust a confusion but something organic,then there is no reason to carry that"toumor" for 8 years if anyways it willbe removed
everything you`ve said is absolutely right.
think of it like this:the girl in this story is actually a boy trapped in the body of a girl. it is a psychological disorder which may be helped by this `corrective surgery`
the reason why they`re giving her the treatment now is so that she doesnt go through puberty as a female. when several medical professionals have analysed her and backed the idea of a sex change, theres probably a good reason.
saying that she shouldnt have this treatment when experts agree that she should is like saying we shouldnt look for a cure for diabetes - yes, we can live without the cure, but why wouldnt you try to find one?
the bottom line is that this kid is screwed up, and the treatment might help a lot.
If I went to the doctor and asked him to cut off my arm he would think I was insane and see that I got psychological help. If I asked him to cut off my foot he would think I was insane and get me some psychological help. The same if I asked him to cut off my nose, my hand, my ear..... But if someone wants their penis cut off we are supposed to pretend that person is sane. It`s a sick, sick world!
I just don`t understand those who claim to know more about someone else`s preferences or needs. Not just someone else but a group of people.
The Australian government failed here. But most of the blame rests on the family. Sad times ahead indeed.
Next they are going to be taking dodgeball out of gym class. Oh wait...
No, it`s really not. I live there, so I know that it is in fact one of the most regressive, backward-looking countries on earth.
12 years old. 12 freaking years old!!
When you`re twelve, you don`t even know what you want to be when you grow up. You don`t even know what you wanna do on the weekend. This kid is gonna go through gender reassignment because she`s afraid of menstrating and doesn`t want her chest to ache? Give me a break!
I lament for humanity. Her parents should be locked up. The judge too, for that matter.
What a little bitch.