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Date: 05/26/08 10:31 PM

179 Responses to Girl to be Boy

  1. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18829 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 9:16 pm
    Link: Girl to be Boy - Aussie judge gives a girl, only 12, the go-ahead to have a sex change. Is Australia really that progressive? Who knew?
  2. Profile photo of docwatson
    docwatson Male 18-29
    253 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:34 pm
    "A family court judgment said it was important to act quickly to prevent the onset of puberty as the girl dreaded the prospect of menstruation and developing breasts, and had threatened self-harm."

    pathetic

  3. Profile photo of witchawitcha
    witchawitcha Female 13-17
    347 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:36 pm
    the article said she was doing it because she dreaded menstruation and developing breasts. her mother needed to talk to her! its really not that bad! 12...thats way too young to decide anything. damn these people to hell for letting her do this!
  4. Profile photo of Surfingninja
    Surfingninja Female 18-29
    744 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:39 pm
    "OMG! PERIODS ARE LIKE, SOOOO SCARY! MAKE ME A MAN!"

    What a little bitch.

  5. Profile photo of Cashcleaner
    Cashcleaner Male 18-29
    319 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:51 pm
    What the frak?!

    12 years old. 12 freaking years old!!

    When you`re twelve, you don`t even know what you want to be when you grow up. You don`t even know what you wanna do on the weekend. This kid is gonna go through gender reassignment because she`s afraid of menstrating and doesn`t want her chest to ache? Give me a break!

    I lament for humanity. Her parents should be locked up. The judge too, for that matter.

  6. Profile photo of jscohen
    jscohen Male 18-29
    40 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:51 pm
    "Is Australia really that progressive?"

    No, it`s really not. I live there, so I know that it is in fact one of the most regressive, backward-looking countries on earth.

  7. Profile photo of BrokenJohn
    BrokenJohn Male 18-29
    464 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:51 pm
    You call that progression?
  8. Profile photo of Dakkar
    Dakkar Male 18-29
    1256 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:53 pm
    Instead of ever teaching kids to face any of their fears lets teach them that the nice ol` government will let them do whatever they want to escape any problems in life.

    The Australian government failed here. But most of the blame rests on the family. Sad times ahead indeed.

    Next they are going to be taking dodgeball out of gym class. Oh wait...

  9. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:56 pm
    I don`t think it`s as simple as they didn`t want to have a period.
    Can`t it be accepted that people know about their own bodies and their own minds than you do?
  10. Profile photo of JohnnyDude
    JohnnyDude Male 18-29
    5 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:59 pm
    That`s great for the little boy. Eff anyone who thinks they can decide a kid`s gender for him.
  11. Profile photo of Surfingninja
    Surfingninja Female 18-29
    744 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 10:59 pm
    ^ That`s not true. If people knew what to do, we wouldn`t need doctors or psychologists.
  12. Profile photo of MissMage
    MissMage Female 18-29
    695 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:00 pm
    100 bucks says she`s going to regret this at 17. Hehe.
  13. Profile photo of AnwarNova
    AnwarNova Male 18-29
    2076 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:00 pm
    poor dad :/
  14. Profile photo of xp
    xp Male 30-39
    522 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:04 pm
    I blame George Bush, and Microsoft. But mostly video games and the gays.
  15. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:10 pm
    We go to the doctor or the psychologist when we know we need help.

    I just don`t understand those who claim to know more about someone else`s preferences or needs. Not just someone else but a group of people.

  16. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:13 pm
    The Judge should be disbarred and the Psychiatrist should lose his license. The mother should lose custody, which should be given to the father. And the girl should receive counseling from a REAL psychiatrist.
  17. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:14 pm
    I`ve never actually heard of a case where someone with gender dysphoria was mistaken.
  18. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:18 pm
    For Johnnydude:
    steps to deciding someones gender:
    1. Look for a penis. If they have one they are male. If they have a vagina they are female.

    If I went to the doctor and asked him to cut off my arm he would think I was insane and see that I got psychological help. If I asked him to cut off my foot he would think I was insane and get me some psychological help. The same if I asked him to cut off my nose, my hand, my ear..... But if someone wants their penis cut off we are supposed to pretend that person is sane. It`s a sick, sick world!

  19. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:20 pm
    Nazarene, do you realize you`re arguing with a widely accepted psychological disorder that has been proven in many past centuries?
    You`ve never experienced it, it isn`t hurting you in any way, I don`t understand why you think it`s sick.
  20. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:22 pm
    Opiebreath, if you had a prepubuscent child come and ask you if she could have her arm cut off would you let her do it?
  21. Profile photo of instagata0
    instagata0 Male 13-17
    44 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:24 pm
    most people who have posted so far are so narrow minded that its stupid.

    the reason why they`re giving her the treatment now is so that she doesnt go through puberty as a female. when several medical professionals have analysed her and backed the idea of a sex change, theres probably a good reason.

    saying that she shouldnt have this treatment when experts agree that she should is like saying we shouldnt look for a cure for diabetes - yes, we can live without the cure, but why wouldnt you try to find one?

    the bottom line is that this kid is screwed up, and the treatment might help a lot.

  22. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:25 pm
    The kid is twelve. A kid that age isn`t competent to decide on a tattoo.
  23. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:27 pm
    No, not at all.
    Infact, any child simply asking for that would be a no. From anybody.
    Do you think that`s all it was? She has had these strong feelings since she was 4, a psychiatrist and a judge ha viewed the evidenced and approved it. I think it`s acceptable to put my trust in those authority figures.
    If a psychological syndrome found that was incurable in which people seemingly wanted their limbs removed, and it had biological origins, then yes, of course I would say yes.
    Have you considered the number of sex change operations that resulted in the transgendered person to be switched back?
  24. Profile photo of instagata0
    instagata0 Male 13-17
    44 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:28 pm
    nazarene, i dont want to know how uneducated you are, but i have begun studying psychology, and i know that a sex change is nothing like an amputation.

    think of it like this:
    the girl in this story is actually a boy trapped in the body of a girl. it is a psychological disorder which may be helped by this `corrective surgery`

  25. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:28 pm
    Nazarene, it`s not so much a decision as it is a gut instinct. Since she`s been able to communicate this is how she felt. Those and other signs are very obvious to any psychiatrist to be gender dysmorphia.
  26. Profile photo of instagata0
    instagata0 Male 13-17
    44 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:29 pm
    opiebreath, you are spot on the mark.

    everything you`ve said is absolutely right.

  27. Profile photo of xp
    xp Male 30-39
    522 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:33 pm
    People should be able to do whatever they want to with their bodies, once they are mature enough to understand the consequences. Most 12 year olds are not that mature. This makes me nervous. Damn video games.
  28. Profile photo of xp
    xp Male 30-39
    522 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:34 pm
    And also George Bush and the gays.
  29. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:36 pm
    we are just sick of all the whiny girl teens so we`re turning them all into boys ;)
  30. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:37 pm
    If Nazarene`s age is right, then
    we should try to understand him...
    If he isn`t that age, the you should
    try to understand this is way to far
    from a simple "Don`t want menstruation
    or breast"

    It`s like you have a toumor...
    If you know you don`t want that on
    your body, then it`s better to take
    it off, right?

    Well, this is the same. She doesn`t
    wants to be a girl, with the proper
    scientific aprobal that says it isn`t
    just a confusion but something organic,
    then there is no reason to carry that
    "toumor" for 8 years if anyways it will
    be removed

  31. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:41 pm
    Also... "Opiebreath, if you had a
    prepubuscent child come and ask you
    if she could have her arm cut off
    would you let her do it?"

    ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!???
    I`ve never seen such an out of context
    example. Do you really think that
    deciding your own gender it`s like
    loosing an arm?

    Are you really that close minded?
    It`s like telling me that having
    my hair that long is like a girl
    growing a penis

  32. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:44 pm
    Quote from Dr. Meyer, who completed a peer reviewed study at John Hopkins on "sex-reassignment surgery:

    Methodological Problems in Assessing
    Sex-Reassignment Surgery:
    A Reply to Meyer and Reter

    Dr. Meyer: "My personal feeling is that surgery is not a proper treatment for a psychiatric disorder and it`s clear to me that these patients have severe psychological problems that don`t go away following surgery."

  33. Profile photo of xoxcassxox
    xoxcassxox Female 18-29
    263 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:48 pm
    Im all for everyone being comfertable in thier own bodies but 12...really? It wouldnt hurt to maybe wait 2 or 3 years.
  34. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:49 pm
    Iceblack, a vagina is not a tumor.
  35. Profile photo of xoxcassxox
    xoxcassxox Female 18-29
    263 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:50 pm
    hes got a good point though
  36. Profile photo of witchawitcha
    witchawitcha Female 13-17
    347 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:50 pm
    "My personal feeling is that surgery is not a proper treatment for a psychiatric disorder and it`s clear to me that these patients have severe psychological problems that don`t go away following surgery."

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    probably the most appropriate quote for this article. why the hell should we be able to teach children that surgery can cure your problems? it cant! so why should we bother lying? if her mental illness is strong enough that she is a threat to herself, then like ANYBODY NORMAL she should be put in an institute to help her get better instead of offering her surgery!

  37. Profile photo of xoxcassxox
    xoxcassxox Female 18-29
    263 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:52 pm
    I think people that are sexaly confussed are behond help and its not just something that you can get over with a bit of help.
  38. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    May 26, 2008 at 11:54 pm
    she is only taking hormone treatment, if at anytime she changes her mind she can go off it and there will be minimal to no harm done and she will be female again.

    Besides, since when have you heard a gay or transgendered man say "I knew I was different when I was 30"? They all say they knew they were "in the wrong body" from a very young age. I went to school with a gay guy, and you could tell he was gay when we were in grade 2!

  39. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:01 am
    C`mon Nazarene
    I think you are smart enough
    to understand my point

    Maybe i can`t explain it totally
    clear, but that`s because this
    is not my original language.
    Sucks when you can`t put into
    words what you are thinking, now
    imagine trying that in another
    language

  40. Profile photo of Evanesia
    Evanesia Female 18-29
    306 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:03 am
    I don`t thiink they should allow kids to do this, for the very reason that they may be confused.
  41. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:06 am
    For "witchawitcha" and also a little
    for "xoxcassxox"...

    This is not about "confusion" or
    a little girl who is not confortable
    with her body

    This is a sexual issue, that has
    an organic element. It`s not like
    somebody with Anorexy or something
    like that, that needs help with
    her perception about herself

    This is something that SHE IS...
    I want to think at least, the article
    need a little explication about if
    she has a Doctor suporting her or
    she is just asking for it without
    any kind of tests

  42. Profile photo of jamesuyt
    jamesuyt Male 13-17
    680 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:07 am
    Okay.. thank god for these people standing up for him/her. the first few posts seriously disgusted me. I say, all for it. If she has been given help, and still thinks this is a good idea, then thats her decision. i think ESPECIALLY if she`s willing to harm herself, then a sex change that she would regret later in her life would do less harm than having to go thru the stress of puberty when you really dont want to and no-one will allow you to make your own decision. If the judge and psychiatrist have looked at the evidence and accepted it, then thats just more support!

    here`s an example. say...a child is exceptionally skinny. not quite anorexic but very skinny. then, say she gets teased at school by the other, bigger kids in her grade and gets pushed around a lot because of her slimmer body. then, the child gets the idea of putting on some weight to help this problem. should the parents be able to decide if she can put on the weight? even if a teacher and principal agree? (contd)

  43. Profile photo of jamesuyt
    jamesuyt Male 13-17
    680 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:10 am
    no! if he child does not like being skinny, and wants to gain a bit of weight, then why whouldnt she be able to? sure, she may regret it in the upcoming years, but if she is so concerned about the other kids teasing her that she would not survive the rest of her school life, and is willing to harm herself if she wasnt allowed to gain the weight, then who really has the power to stop her? its her own decision.

    P.S. sorry for the long comment(s) :P

  44. Profile photo of jamesuyt
    jamesuyt Male 13-17
    680 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:12 am
    "Besides, since when have you heard a gay or transgendered man say "I knew I was different when I was 30"? They all say they knew they were "in the wrong body" from a very young age. I went to school with a gay guy, and you could tell he was gay when we were in grade 2!"

    exactly right! i have experienced the exact same thing. thanks for bringing that up, Shellie

  45. Profile photo of witchawitcha
    witchawitcha Female 13-17
    347 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:16 am
    are you honestly comparing gaining a bit of weight to GETTING A PENIS!? jesus, i cant believe that crap! when shes 18 she should be able to decide, until then shes not even old enough to decide if she wants a smoke! she cant have a cigarette or a drink but she can have her ovarys removed and a penis attached, after taking YEARS of horrmones? shes a damn child. i would hope that if i wanted something like this, that i would likely regret in years to come, that my family or ANYBODY for that matter would see fit to put a stop to it!
  46. Profile photo of witchawitcha
    witchawitcha Female 13-17
    347 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:16 am
    ^at least until im a legal adult
  47. Profile photo of jamesuyt
    jamesuyt Male 13-17
    680 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:19 am
    witchawitcha..

    a sex change is not just `getting a penis` and..
    she is willing to HARM HERSELF. who says, if they didnt allow it, that she would last to 18yrs old without killing herself?

    oh, and underage drinking and smoking is illegal, a sex change, however (especially if accepted by a judge) is not.

  48. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:25 am
    Well, my last comment here:
    I just think that if she wants
    to be a boy, and has an expert`s
    aprobal on her side

    And they probe that it isn`t just
    a confusion...

    THEN GO FOR IT!!!
    There are alot of close minded
    people who think that the world
    has to be only the way they are
    or want it to be

  49. Profile photo of jamesuyt
    jamesuyt Male 13-17
    680 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:26 am
    iceblack, i totally agree.
  50. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:28 am
    I did a web search on this and found another source that says the was brought up as a boy by her now dead father. Her mother deserted her. She is now being raised by her aunt. Doesn`t it seem logical that she may be doing this to honor her dead, twisted father? The hormone treatments will have permanent effects on her: facial hair, deepening of the voice. If she does change her mind it will soon be too late. Her body will have been permanently altered. It sounds like she was raised by a father who was disappointed that she was a girl, and her mother abandoned her. She needs love, not hormones.

    Here`s the other article:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/1...

  51. Profile photo of Kisato
    Kisato Female 18-29
    695 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:33 am
    I`m with everyone backing up this girl. It is young, I admit, but if she feels SO strongly that she was not meant to be a girl, and whole heartedly believes from the bottom of her heart that she is a boy, then she should be able to make this decision. As long as they know for a fact that it isn`t just confusion and all that jazz. I knew who I was at her age... shouldn`t she know who she is as well? Not everyone discovers themselves at an old age.
  52. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:37 am
    Mmmm
    I don`t know... I mean, if she was
    raised as a boy only because her
    father wanted to, then they should
    analise her physically to know if
    this is just a temporal feeling

    But hey, read this:
    "Alex - whose condition doctors call
    gender identity dysphoria - beats boys
    at arm wrestling, and is attracted to
    girls, the court heard."

    Isn`t this the ESCENSE of sexuality
    right now? Not because of what you
    look like, but because of what you
    feel?

    I agree if this is not temporal,
    if this is what She is, then it`s ok

  53. Profile photo of vintagepizza
    vintagepizza Female 13-17
    447 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:40 am
    Would not have expected this in Aus
    Not sure on my opinion here either. If the court has made this decision then I am sure they had a lot of reason/evidence to.
  54. Profile photo of wowibrandon
    wowibrandon Male 13-17
    822 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:43 am
    well if she threatened self-harm then it was a lose/lose situation for the judge
  55. Profile photo of Hansbo
    Hansbo Male 18-29
    901 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:48 am
    I don`t see the big deal. So they stop puberty, it`s not like it`s irreversible.
  56. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:49 am
    You are right "wowibrandon", if
    she was going to do it anyway,
    then it`s better to do it under
    the law with Doctors watching her

    It`s like Drugs (Another discussion
    maybe, but in this case i think
    the same), if people do it anyway,
    the LEGALIZE IT!!! Sell it under
    controlated amounts, purity

    I mean... If people is going to do
    something, even if it`s ilegal, then
    it`s better to legalize it and have
    a control over that

  57. Profile photo of witchawitcha
    witchawitcha Female 13-17
    347 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:01 am
    jamesuyt

    164 Posts Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:19:30 AM
    witchawitcha..
    a sex change is not just `getting a penis` and..
    she is willing to HARM HERSELF. who says, if they didnt allow it, that she would last to 18yrs old without killing herself?

    oh, and underage drinking and smoking is illegal, a sex change, however (especially if accepted by a judge) is not.
    ----------------------------------------------
    obviously u didnt read my other comment, i suggested that she be put in an institute that can help her if she is seriously going to harm herself. there IS methods of helping this poor girl! she needs to wait it out for a few years, and see what she thinks of it when shes an adult and can think for herself.
    do you honestly think that i could be ignorant enough to think that a sex change is JUST getting a penis? in my opinion what this girl needs isnt the emotional/mental baggage of being turned into a man before shes able to think for herself. thats all im saying.

  58. Profile photo of n0n4m3
    n0n4m3 Male 18-29
    131 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:02 am
    Errr Nazarene, your article and the current one is completely different. Look at the date you tool.

    It`s similar though. Both parents are still alive, and the mother was disappointed in her being a girl, so brought her up as a boy, buying boy clothes etc.
    The reason they went to court was not to get permission for the change, but rather a legal battle between the mother and father.

  59. Profile photo of witchawitcha
    witchawitcha Female 13-17
    347 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:04 am
    i think its bullsht that a judge can accept and approve of letting this girl PROBABLY do more damage than has already happened. doesnt anybody want to help this child without the use of a scalpel or some pills?
  60. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:15 am
    I think it`s way too young...when I was 12 I probably had all sorts of bat poo crazy ideas in my head. If people want to do that to their bodies...what the hell do I care...this whole situation just seems really twisted to me.

    On another note...the thing that stood out to me the most is that she threatened to harm herself...it`s probably an empty threat...I say this only because anyone who is afraid of menstruation and boobs is probably too chicken poo to do anything too harmful...sounds like someone just need attention...but what do I know...I`m just speculating like the rest of the geniuses on here....even the ones with the long hair...

  61. Profile photo of sicker
    sicker Female 30-39
    325 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:16 am
    clearly none of you have ever had a gender identity crisis in your lifetime.

    shut up. when you don`t know what you`re talking about, just shut up.

  62. Profile photo of Adrift_Angel
    Adrift_Angel Female 18-29
    339 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:20 am
    Look, dont gender confused people try to kill themselves because they feel so trapped?
    Anyway, its been done once before somewhere in like the UK.
    Australia is just..rad.
  63. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:21 am
    I`m 16, and transgendered. And I have a very feminine body thanks to puberty.

    And I have been self-harming once per day at the worst times, ran away for a few hours late one night, and went suicidal (without any attempts - i self harmed to keep myself alive).

    Fortunately for him, he doesn`t have to go through all of that.

    Did you lot notice something else?
    "The judge said that while the initial treatment was reversible, it needed to be seen as the first step in a process which, if continued, would allow the girl to live as a man."

    "...penis cannot be performed before the age of 18. "

    He is having completely reversible things done. For another 6 years, he CAN`T have surgery. He can still be a she, if he should decide so in a few years time, and then have a normal female puberty.

  64. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:22 am
    Oh, and according to a newspaper, 50% of transgendered people attempt suicide before they are 20.
  65. Profile photo of angelbrat
    angelbrat Female 18-29
    178 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:23 am
    Okay, I`ll try to speak in tiny words so some of you can wrap your narrow little minds around this.

    He feels he was born in a girls body, He does not feel like, and will never feel like he was ever a she. He does not want to start a period and have breasts, because that`s not what boys have or do.
    How would you feel if you were a boy and had a vagina, or a girl and had a penis? Wouldn`t like it, would you? It`s not just some crazy phase he is going through. And to the person who said something about putting him in an institution, Yeah, that`s a great idea, let`s punish him because of it! ..for you extra stupid people, that last sentence was called sarcasm.

  66. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:28 am
    angelbrat

    I think we get the situation...SHE may feel like she is a boy...fine whatever...that doesnt make her one. I can call an apple a banana all day long...doesn`t change the fact it`s a apple. If she wants to whatever it to make her feel like a dude...that fine...her choice, but that fact is...she is a female...its that simple...

  67. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:30 am
    *** if she wants to do whatver it takes to make her a dude

    Wow..i butchered that one

  68. Profile photo of DavidCameron
    DavidCameron Male 40-49
    109 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:32 am
    thats so wrong. i mean who wants a sex change at that age?
  69. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:44 am
    omg... you are all so narrow minded.

    DavidC, so many at the age of 4 already know they are the wrong gender. What`s surprising about someone wanting it the age of 12?

    Neil, in the same way, however much you call him a her, it won`t change reality. He is a he, whatever society does to him.

  70. Profile photo of angelbrat
    angelbrat Female 18-29
    178 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:47 am
    Neilthesheep

    Actually, thanks to science He can be a biological boy. :)

  71. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:49 am
    fine...then I`m Batman...for now on...because I feel it...I`m batman...just because I say so. (not really..but you see where I`m going with this)

    It`s not society that makes her a girl...it`s biology...that`s it.

    Now...I don`t want to say I`m against an operation like this cause it doesn`t matter to me...i dont agree with it...but hell...when does that stop folks from doing a lot of things...to each their own. Can you answer this tho...this is the part I dont get...if you`re born with all the parts...not just the obvious ones...the hormones, and whatever else it is that biologically make someone the gender they are, what in fact is it that makes people think they`re in the wrong body?

  72. Profile photo of Zerocyde
    Zerocyde Male 18-29
    3256 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:49 am
    "progressive"

    lol

  73. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:51 am
    agelbrat

    OH I know science absolutely can make someone a biological boy...but the fact is until that happens...she is most certainly a girl...by definition....thats the point I`m making

  74. Profile photo of Zerocyde
    Zerocyde Male 18-29
    3256 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:51 am
    "what in fact is it that makes people think they`re in the wrong body?"

    Idiocy. Plain and simple.

  75. Profile photo of GeorgieRose
    GeorgieRose Female 18-29
    49 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:53 am
    witchawitcha - it worries me that you think that putting someone in an institution for the next 6 years will do them less psychological harm than a reversible medical procedure.

    The fact is that we do not know all the facts of this case and you can guarantee that such a decision would not have been taken lightly by the judges or doctors as it probably sets a precedence. They are trained professionals and quoting one expert with a differing opinion about this issue is not representative of general medical opinion. This is an incredibly complex issue and I dont think anyone here has the right to judge the girl, her family or the experts involved unless they happen to have a PHD in psychiatry, specialising in Gender Dysmorphia.

    FYI there is a condition where people feel they shouldnt be in possession of a certain limb and may try and get it removed. its called Apotemnophilia

  76. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:53 am
    zerocyde

    I`m actually asking in all seriousness...it`s kind of an interesting topic...I`m trying not to insult anyone...I`m glad there`s folks who have first hand experience with this to have a discussion.

  77. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:58 am
    People are not deluded for thinking that they are in the wrong body. For what biologically makes that possible; the brain of one gender, and the body of another. The brain is completely biologically correct in this argument, and just because you can`t see it, doesn`t mean that it can`t have an important input in this.
  78. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:03 am
    ok...for the sake of argument (I wanna stress that I`m really not trying to be an non-nice individual...anyway I slice it it doesn`t make sense....but there`s always a chance I`ve been slicing it wrong all together) if you took a female brain and a male brain and plopped them on a table you could tell the difference? I agree that there are differences between the way men and women think...no doubt...but I thought that was more influenced by the hormones...but I`m not scientist...that`s for sure
  79. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:08 am
    I am not a scientist either, but hey. And everyone`s entitled to their opinions so I have no issue with you keeping them coming :D

    Ok, then you are male with a male brain, yes?

    Would you like to be female? If you woke up tomorrow and had suddenly grown breasts, would you keep them? If you changed fully overnight into a female, then what would you do? What if you were yourself, but with breasts and a vagina from the day you were born?

    You must have some knowledge of yourself, without looking down to check your genitals, that you are male. And that is the same way that I, and the 12 year old, both know that we are male.

  80. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:15 am
    I would liketo think I have a male brain...some might speculate if I have one at all..but that`s off topic :)

    I do have a knowledge of myself without the looking at the genitalia...but we already decided there`s more to it than that.

    If I changed over night what would I do? I`d probably be convinced on what everyone has been saying about the hormones in milk these days...it`s hard to make that connection tho...because this little girl is not changing naturally...she is getting help with it.

  81. Profile photo of MissMage
    MissMage Female 18-29
    695 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:16 am
    .....Putting someone in a psych hospital is not a punishment. It can be quite helpful and very stress relieving.

    But since this girl has been seeing a psychaiatrist and they say that this is the right thing whatever right?

    I just hope this girl knows what she`s doing. From the age of 4 to 12 I had my heart on a lot of things too. I was definitely someone else at that age.

    At least this process is reversible in case she realizes that this isn`t what she wants.

  82. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:19 am
    I guess the point I am poorly making is that there is no major difference between a male brain and a female brain (as far as I can tell). The part that makes it work the way it does is the chemicals making it work that do differ between men and women. If you need meds to change the chemicals in your body...that doesnt that hint to that maybe you are the gender you appear to be?

    Now if it`s all a "hey, I wanna change my gender because, screw you! that`s why" kind of thing...I`m cool...like I said to each their own...I guess I`m not convinced of people being born with the wrong parts.

  83. Profile photo of GeorgieRose
    GeorgieRose Female 18-29
    49 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:20 am
    I wasnt trying to say putting people in institutions is a form of punishment, I was trying to say that doing so when they could be living a normal life on hormone treatment during their formative teenage years cannot be preferable.
  84. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:26 am
    I`d admit that without having gender issues yourself, it must be almost impossible for anyone else to understand them. I wouldn`t either. All I do know is that I am a male with a vagina. Either I become myself or kill myself. And for me, that`s all there is to it.
  85. Profile photo of NeiltheSheep
    NeiltheSheep Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:30 am
    I guess we agree to disagree... and that`s cool...thanks for talking about it with me anyhow! You seem like a reasonable fellow;)catch ya around
  86. Profile photo of BigBonny
    BigBonny Male 18-29
    2216 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:34 am
    Far too young. Bad parenting.
  87. Profile photo of Ninja-Nerd
    Ninja-Nerd Male 18-29
    139 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:42 am
    OK, just stating that I read through about 2.5 pages worth of comments on this, not every one so far.

    Personally, I don`t worry about what people do with their own bodies, that`s up to them. However, this is not like getting a random piercing, or scarification, or tattooing. This is even more permanent.

    Sure, the child may feel more comfortable as a "male" but will never truly be a male, and certainly others will be put off by this: look in the paper, people seem to be ashamed if they have... erm... spent the night with people such as "shemales" etc.

    This is definitely not cosmetic, but a psychological thing (Notice I did not say problem). This is how she may feel now, but in a few years, she may feel completely different, and then again, she may not. I do believe that 12 is too young.

    On the religious side, God made you the way you are, he created the "perfect being". Therefore there is no possibility for a mistake.

  88. Profile photo of Mouichi
    Mouichi Male 18-29
    637 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:42 am
    Actually, there IS a difference in the brains of males and females. The SDN (sexually dimorphic nucleus) is the biggest difference between a male and female brain. It`s essential in the maternal behavior, and sexual behavior of mammals. There are four cell groups in the SDN, and most of them are larger in males than they are in females. Some researchers have gone on to try and prove a link in sexual orientation. (Trying to prove that gay males have smaller cell groups, and that gay females have larger ones.)
  89. Profile photo of toxxicmuffin
    toxxicmuffin Female 13-17
    7 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:45 am
    Some of you people need to get heads on your shoulders, honestly, and put a brain in said heads. Because it`s not "oh she`s tweleve so she can`t decide" and it`s not "oh she`s scared of having her period".
    Imagine, if you will, that you spent your entire life feeling awkward and uncomfortable, and even in children`s cases, depressive and trapped? That`s what she`s going through. it`s not like, when you turn 14 or something, your brain magically tells you "oh, you`re actually a boy!" You know it when you`re a kid, and when what you are doesn`t match what you feel, it`s not a fun thing to deal with.
  90. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:57 am
    someone asked about boy/girl brains and someone else explained. I saw a documentry about research into this and it`s been proven through cat scans and autopsies that gay men/lesbian woman have the opposite brain, therefore giving that "feeling of being in the wrong body" because they are. They really do have male brains in female bodies and etcetera. There was also an experiment on twins years ago. One had a sex change at birth and they were brought up to be boy and girl (they were both born boys) The one who was made a girl knew his whole life he was a boy, even though he had been dressed as a boy and treated as one would treat their son his whole life. He has now had another sex change to be made back to the female he was born as originally
  91. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:58 am
    damn its late, I meant dressed as a girl and treated as one his whole life.... you should know what I meant, I aint re-explaining, i have bottles to make lol
  92. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:19 am
    "On the religious side, God made you the way you are, he created the "perfect being". Therefore there is no possibility for a mistake."

    Ninja-nerd, firstly don`t worry because she can`t do anything permanent yet, just hortmone blockers to prevent puberty, which is reversible.

    Secondly, the god making perfect beings? You tell a blind person that they shouldn`t support finding cures for blinds, as god made you perfect, so you shouldn`t be able to see. We are definetly not made perfect.

  93. Profile photo of no_need
    no_need Female 18-29
    465 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:41 am
    so, threatening self-harm is the way to get what you want now? Dad, get me a Porsche! Or else...
  94. Profile photo of zoinks
    zoinks Male 13-17
    437 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:52 am
    "On the religious side, God made you the way you are, he created the "perfect being". Therefore there is no possibility for a mistake."

    why do i need glasses then?

    also I`m not sure why this case in particular is such a big deal, they only approved the treatment because they knew it was reversible

  95. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:16 am
    Biological boy?

    It won`t change her genes. She won`t be able to have kids as a boy. She doesn`t produce sperm. She doesn`t have a Y chromosome. She`s not a "biological" boy.

    She has a sculpted penis is all, and some forced biological changes.

    A girl wearing a strapon and a fake beard is not suddenly a man, and people with gender reassignment are not suddenly a different gender. It`s make believe until science can do it properly.


    Also, if I "felt I was supposed to be a girl" or vice versa. I don`t think I`d particularly care.... I don`t get why the hell some people are going "Imagine... imagine the HORROR".

    Also, if my kids start doing the whole "Get me or porsche or I`ll kill myself" "Let me smoke or I`ll kill myself" "Let me get breast implants or I`ll kill myself" I`ll assume there`s a problem like a good parent, and not fall in line like a bad.

  96. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:28 am


    For those of you who are confused, the above is not really a "Biological" cat. It is a man pretending to be a cat.



    The above is an actual cat. I know it`s dressed as a frog and some of you may find that confusing, but nevertheless, I think you`ll find that biologically, it`s a cat.

    Incidentally, I`m a Pegasus really, I`m just in the wrong body.

  97. Profile photo of i-am-emo
    i-am-emo Female 70 & Over
    1264 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:33 am
    HEY! WE HAVE TO LIKE... grow hair and stuff... thats pretty weird
  98. Profile photo of i-am-emo
    i-am-emo Female 70 & Over
    1264 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:43 am
    xp:
    "I blame George Bush, and Microsoft. But mostly video games and the gays."

    Don`t forget rap music

  99. Profile photo of BABY_BEAR
    BABY_BEAR Female 18-29
    1395 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:43 am
    `progressive`?? change that for `irresponsible` and you might be on the right track.
  100. Profile photo of Pabasa
    Pabasa Male 18-29
    4012 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:51 am
    I say let it go ahead.

    THis case will be sort of like an experiment, and we`ll see in 10 years time if he will be happy being a boy, or if it`s just a phase. He`s willing to undergo the procedure, so it is in no way irresponsible or whatever.

    Whatever happens in a couple of years time will support either the "wrong body" camp or the "bad parenting" camp.

    Go for it! No experiments without sacrifices!

  101. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:54 am
    "Also, if I "felt I was supposed to be a girl" or vice versa. I don`t think I`d particularly care.... I don`t get why the hell some people are going "Imagine... imagine the HORROR"."
    Baalthazaq, I don`t have to `imagine the horror`, and that is what it is.

    To be born the wrong gender is `horror`. To feel a stranger grow around you, completely alien to who you are is `horror`. To have to spend every moment of your life knowing that you are wrong, that is `horror`. To have to cut and make yourself bleed in pain to drag yourself out of the desperation and misery, that is true `horror`.
    Don`t trivialise it, because it really is that bad.

  102. Profile photo of Crapsniper
    Crapsniper Male 13-17
    209 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:14 am
    Look at the kid in my avatar. Do you think he wanted to be that Awesome & totally rad? No, he was BORN that way, and let life take it`s course. Which is what this girl should do.

    IMO, it`s like not participating in Gym class because you feel that you can`t (AKA Shut up and run).

  103. Profile photo of tourettes
    tourettes Male 18-29
    957 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:16 am
    who the heck cares the surgery can`t happen till 18. its all a bunch of chemicals/medicines and no viagra is involved so why all the fuss?
  104. Profile photo of lamegatorade
    lamegatorade Male 13-17
    66 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:25 am
    As a logical observer I would say that what seems like the healthiest way for this kid to overcome their problem would be to recognize both what they feel they are and what they actually are. I say "they" because all people are really composed of two selves, the physical self and mental self, which are inarguably wed together in a mystical and immeasurable way.

    Both of these selves posses an aspect called gender, but there is not necessarily any correlation between the gender reflected in the mind and the one in the body.

    So, the girl (as I tend to think that physical gender is the one that should be referred to in polite conversation), when he is older and wiser might be happier and more comfortable as the creature that she was when she sprung forth into the world, but childhood is a time of heavy emotion and she`s not even into the worst of it yet, so for christsake let the kid do whatever he wants, it`s his damn body.

  105. Profile photo of Ninja-Nerd
    Ninja-Nerd Male 18-29
    139 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:33 am
    In response, perfect in the sense that there is no right or wrong. What is there to say that we must have this or that, or be in such a way?

    Hell, my left foot could be bigger than my right, but does that mean that it wasn`t supposed to be?

    We were made the way we are for a reason, whatever that may be.

  106. Profile photo of starcrosst
    starcrosst Male 30-39
    54 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:47 am
    "we were made the way we are for a reason, whatever that may be."

    and maybe this case was made to feel as a male, even though physically a female? Whatever the reason may be, perhaps this is the preordained path that was laid out?

    Maybe, the seeking out of this, and the eventual sexual reassignment surgery, is this `perfection` you speak of for this particular individual?

    We can`t truly know.

  107. Profile photo of GummyWurmz
    GummyWurmz Female 13-17
    1412 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 6:21 am
    I think that its okay to let the kid choose to be a lad, if thats what they want to do. They let boys turn into lasses don`t they at a young age (I have seen it in a magazine). There is a girl of about 17 in my town that is having a sex change to become a boy soon.
  108. Profile photo of PopeBenedict
    PopeBenedict Male 70 & Over
    504 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 6:44 am
    For Johnnydude:
    steps to deciding someones gender:
    1. Look for a penis. If they have one they are male. If they have a vagina they are female.

    You are ignorant. You are confusing sex with gender. Get some education and then come back and lecture people.

  109. Profile photo of Helium101
    Helium101 Male 13-17
    54 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 6:48 am
    I don`t believe how they would let a 12 year old do such a thing.
  110. Profile photo of PopeBenedict
    PopeBenedict Male 70 & Over
    504 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 6:50 am
    Also, if I "felt I was supposed to be a girl" or vice versa. I don`t think I`d particularly care.... I don`t get why the hell some people are going "Imagine... imagine the HORROR".

    You are even more ignorant

  111. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 7:05 am
    I know a lot of people are saying that she shouldn`t be allowed t make this decision until she`s 18 or older. That makes a lot of sense. We don`t let thoe younger than 18 have full control over the bodies becaue, biologically, they can reason and use logic or experience to make decision as well.
    This isn`t a "decision". The vast majority of transgendered people who go through surgery say they absolutely knew it when they were 9 or younger. She say she knew it when she was 2! This is as much of a decision as being homosexual, or having a personality trait. You can hide it, you can pretend you don`t have it, but it`s biologically ingrained in you.
    Yes, studies have shown that this psychological disorder is biological in nature. It`s even more plausible as being "not a decision" than homosexuality is!
    So normally I`d say of course make her wait, she` far to young to make that comprehensive of a decision. However, this isn`t a decision, it desn`t need logic or
  112. Profile photo of staberind
    staberind Female 18-29
    731 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 7:34 am
    On the other hand, here`s some real horror :"hurt"
  113. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 7:35 am
    the decision shouldnt be made by anyone at all, to me it sounds more like society and state are so dumbed down by their own idiocy by now that every little emo homosexual who threatens to cut themselves can get away with whatever they want.
    i agree with pope, there is no such thing as being in the wrong body, your body is formed biologically at the same time as your mind, the frame of mind and personality is formed by events after, in this case i´d say it came from her fathers...questionable ideas on raising her.And her being "afraid" of becoming a woman, whatever, shes a whiney child who used a threat to try and make people pity her or support her.
    And if i may add, the society, state form and system i support would never even permit messing with hormones or alterations of any kind, nature is not to be messed with.
  114. Profile photo of WHOISIT12345
    WHOISIT12345 Male 18-29
    4394 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 7:41 am
    :( fail
  115. Profile photo of staberind
    staberind Female 18-29
    731 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 7:44 am
    Strangely, for once in your short life, whoisit, you have the right end of the stick.congratulations!
  116. Profile photo of staberind
    staberind Female 18-29
    731 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 7:53 am
    hahahahaahahaahahahaahahaahahahahaahahaah, amazing, thanks sugar, now, two people have the right end of the stick, I`m sure you feel very self satisfied,
  117. Profile photo of Dakkar
    Dakkar Male 18-29
    1256 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 7:53 am
    I`m only against this because of the kid`s age and what this could lead to. For me this borders on eugenics and is setting a path for gene manipulation in unborn children.

    The world should know how dangerous any type of eugenics is. We saw it with Hitler, hell, we saw it in the U.S. Sure it can help with a psychological problem but it can also ignore many social or ethical ramifications.

    I`m sure the doctors and experts were not corrupt and looking to destroy the world. All I`m saying, one day, we could be in a situation where that is not the case, and science and medical technology could be used to "cure" people. Hitler had his expert doctors, and we`re naive to believe it can never happen again.

  118. Profile photo of WerdSeb
    WerdSeb Male 13-17
    10 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 8:25 am
    12 years old is not anywhere close to deciding such a huge change in your life. Why don`t we just allow 12 year olds to decide their spouses, homes, colleges, and jobs? Because the child mind is not mature enough. Just today a random teenager on the street spat in my hair. What the hell? I wonder when we`ll see the follow-up to this link. Fancylad, please keep us posted.
  119. Profile photo of MarthFador
    MarthFador Female 18-29
    1004 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 8:48 am
    You know....I saw a documentary on transsexuals. Most begin to feel as though they should be the opposite gender when they`re pretty young. I saw a girl who began to feel that way when she was about five.
    Really, I`m thinking that it`s fine. She can go through this REVERSABLE treatment untill she`s about eighteen. Then she can figure out if she`s right for the operation or not.
  120. Profile photo of Anonikitty
    Anonikitty Female 18-29
    27 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 9:11 am
    Since she can only have hormone treatment until she`s 18, and hormone treatment is reversible, meh, let her go ahead. It`s almost like going on the pill, only it stops breasts from growing too. If she still wants to have her bits cut up and stuff when she`s 18, ok.
  121. Profile photo of aj101
    aj101 Male 13-17
    567 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 9:37 am
    i wish i lived in Australia...wait
  122. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 10:34 am
    The APA {concuring with the medical community} defines transexualism as a disorder, which means that it needs to be treated via surgery. The UN council on gender/sexuality defines many genders including het. male, het. female, gay male, gay female, bisexual, ferm, herm, omnisexual. Get used to it people, there is way more to human sexuality than just the simple binary code of male/female and it harms humanity when people don`t realize that. I applaud Austrailia for its forward thinking policies and its refusal to appease the atavistic masses.
  123. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18829 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 10:50 am
    I`m agreeing with almost everyone here--this is wrong on just about every level.
  124. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 11:18 am
    I still can`t believe how people are so against it.

    1. What he is doing is reversible
    2. He has been like this since he was a little girl at a very young age
    3. It is very stressful going through puberty in the wrong body.

    Another thing.
    Don`t take the self-harms as whinging. If you think it`s so easy, think about if you could go and pick up a knife, and make youself bleed. You`d probably find that you can`t bring yourself to do it. (This is hypothetically speaking. Please DON`T try to do this.)
    Self-harm isn`t a way to blackmail people, it is a way to keep yourself afloat in a terrible situation.

    He`s going through a hell of a lot at such a young age, so can`t you just be happy that there`s one step in progress that means that he doesn`t have to go through puberty in the wrong body, and may actually have a normal life as a male (unlike some people *points at self*)

  125. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:04 pm
    I`ve been skimming through the comments, and in my opinion, very few of you are sane. Because of my age, you have the right to totally ignore my comment, but here is what I think of the issue. My post will probably be pretty long, depending on how long I rant. At risk of sounding like some George Bush-loving-redneck, here goes: Being raised as a Christian, I learned a couple things about God and what he wants his people to do. One of the things I learned was that He does not want us to harm ourselves in any way. He gave us our bodies and wanted us to be wise with them. Mutilating them by turning a vagina into a penis is OBVIOUSLY a form of self harm. Even if they give you meds to help with surgery. God also said He wants us to respect his wishes. If God wishes you to be a woman, than to respect that you should, well, I don`t know, STAY A WOMAN. That`s all I`m going to say that concerns religion, because some people don`t believe in God and I respect their beliefs. But I do still(cont.)
  126. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:10 pm
    have more to say. Although I don`t approve of sex changes, or gays, for that matter, I know that they are here and that there is nothing I can do to make them go away. I wouldn`t even be saying anything about, but what I`m concerned about is that she is ONLY TWELVE YEARS OLD. I only turned thirteen a couple of days ago, and I still can`t even decide what I want for breakfast. At twelve, how are you supposed to know what GENDER you want to be? I know she said she has had these feelings since she was four, but when I was four, I wanted to be a famous veterinarian and my favorite color was pink. Both of those things have changed since then, so who`s to say she won`t change her mind but the time she turns even thirteen? A sex change, from what I know, is permanent. She won`t be able to go back once she`s gone through with it. If she does change her mind, she`ll be living as a man for the rest of her life and she really WILL be trapped. She could at least wait until she`s a legal(cont.)
  127. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:11 pm
    adult. Then she would be for certain on her decision.
  128. Profile photo of DavidCameron
    DavidCameron Male 40-49
    109 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:37 pm
    imSUPERduper,you are in fact super duper
  129. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
    Why, thank you. =)
  130. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 12:56 pm
    As for Baalthazaq, he has committed the fractured analogy fallacy. His reasoning goes something like this: changing gender = changing species. No it does not, thats like instead of comparing puppy to kitten its puppy to basketball, it makes no sense. No one is trying to become a unicorn here, they are trying to correct a birth defect. It is much more appropriately comparable to the hermaphordite who KNOWS she is female and would like to have her testicles removed.
  131. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:11 pm
    I agree that changing a girl to a boy is not a change of species, but if you consider yourself a boy instead of a girl, being a girl isn`t a birth defect. If you are unhappy with yourself, you should see a counselor, not have a permanent surgical operation to change yourself. Although gender isn`t a species, it`s still a large part of who you are.
  132. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:13 pm
    Queenzira said: "they are trying to correct a birth defect"

    The child does not have a birth defect. She has a psychological disorder. A vagina is not a birth defect.

  133. Profile photo of vicious_liar
    vicious_liar Male 13-17
    1226 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:24 pm
    WHOOOO IGNORANT PEOPLE ABOVE! (Yes, I`m talking to you, Nazarene). Please shut up, you uneducated ****. It is a birth defect, just like homosexuals. Not composed as an insult, but transsexuals and homosexuals have a defect in their pituitary, but who cares! I don`t; let the girl have that surgery so she can live her life hapily, in a male body!
    And by the way: Transsexuals DO have a birth defect.
  134. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:33 pm
    I disagree, sexual confusion is exactly that: confusion about your sexuality.
  135. Profile photo of vicious_liar
    vicious_liar Male 13-17
    1226 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:34 pm
    Yes, but she`s not confused; she wants to be a boy and she knows it.
  136. Profile photo of Surfingninja
    Surfingninja Female 18-29
    744 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:35 pm
    I think there would be a lot less arguments if people could just transplant brains. That would be awesome.
  137. Profile photo of vicious_liar
    vicious_liar Male 13-17
    1226 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:38 pm
    Totally >=]
    Would be dirty though...
  138. Profile photo of vicious_liar
    vicious_liar Male 13-17
    1226 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:40 pm
    There was some guy saying earlier that if he had a banana he could call it an apple the whole day long but it wouldn`t be an apple, and the banana should just accept that.
    What if the banana really wanted to be an apple, really, really bad, and you had the power to change the apple in a banana? Well? Would you be so cruel to deny the apple that?
  139. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:42 pm
    Yes, I hate apples.
  140. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:43 pm
    I`m just kidding, but if I answer your question, I have to bring God back into my answer.
  141. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:44 pm
    As a Christian, I believe it is God`s will for that girl to remain a girl, or for that apple to remain an apple, so if I did have that power, I would not use it. I would only use it if God had made a mistake, which He does not.
  142. Profile photo of sleepingsun
    sleepingsun Male 18-29
    163 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:45 pm
    I feel so sorry for this child right now. I had a transgendered friend, female to male, and he knew from a very early age he was in the wrong body, but nobody would listen to him, he was sent to counselling and asked about his home life and upbringing. Although environment has a lot to do with gender definition, it`s also a psychological thing as I believe many people have pointed out. My friend got massively depressed about being trapped in the wrong body, he started self harming, and sick of feeling like a freak he first tried to kill himself. When this was unsuccesful, he then tried to cut off his breasts, they caused him that much misery. This was the turning point, and they agreed to assess him as a gender re-assignment candidate. I`ve never seen him happier, though we`ve lost touch. 12 is definitely not too young, it`s actually just about the right age for reversible hormone treatment, before the trauma of puberty in the wrong body. Obviously the child has been thoroughly
  143. Profile photo of sleepingsun
    sleepingsun Male 18-29
    163 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:47 pm
    psychologically assessed, and it has been determined that the child does indeed suffer Gender Dysmorphia. This is not a decision that has been taken lightly, and every step will have been carefully assessed to make sure this is a permanent thing and not just a phase. Also, for the religious types out there, why did Jesus heal the blind and lame if God intended for them to be blind and lame?
  144. Profile photo of sleepingsun
    sleepingsun Male 18-29
    163 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:49 pm
    Man was made in the image of God, and as God encompasses everything we can ever imagine, so do we. God could be both male, female, or something altogether incomprehensible to us, so why is it so unlikely that a human can have so much more to them than just being a man or woman?
  145. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 1:57 pm
    I agree with you on your religious perspective. I also agree with you, on the point that if you got your sex change to early and went through the wrong body for the rest of your life, that might be better than suicide attempts and other forms of self harm.
  146. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:05 pm
    all people associated with sex-change are paranoid.
  147. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:19 pm
    The girl had a qualified medical opinion. When she was born the doctor looked at her, noticed that she had a vagina rather than a penis, and announced, "It`s a girl!"

    For those of you who can`t seem to grasp this truth, if a child is born with a penis, that child is a boy. If a child is born with a vagina, that child is a girl.
    If a child with a penis thinks he is a girl, that child has a delusion. If a man has his penis and testicles surgically removed he does not become a woman. He becomes a eunuch. If he takes drugs to make his breast grow, he is a eunuch on drugs.

  148. Profile photo of sleepingsun
    sleepingsun Male 18-29
    163 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:39 pm
    Nazarene, I swear you`re just ignoring everything outside your own sphere of being. If a child is born with a penis, then they are physically a boy. If the child is born with a penis, but is mentally a girl, can you even begin to imagine how that must feel? If he has his penis and testicles surgically removed it doesn`t make him a woman, but it helps the body conform to the mind. If it were a delusion, it would be curable through therapy and counselling, and this just isnt the case. It`s actually a recognised medical condition, and if you feel you have the knowledge and authority to argue with people who have spent their lives studying this then feel free, but you`re going to get burned.
  149. Profile photo of CheesyQueso
    CheesyQueso Female 18-29
    2196 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:49 pm
    I don`t think she should. She is too young what if she changes her mind later. Right now it is reversible but in a few years when they deepen her voice and give her facial hair then it won`t be. Anyway I`m against that completely
  150. Profile photo of StefanM
    StefanM Male 18-29
    63 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 2:52 pm
    I am probably going to regret jumping in this, but what the hell.

    Forgetting the physical attributes for a minute, genetically speaking, she`s a she. Now she may really believe she`s a boy, but believing something doesn`t make it so. I will concede she is going through something very difficult that few of us can even begin to understand, but I do know that no amount of surgery is going to change those two X`s in her body.

    Yes, it`s a medical condition, but I`d say that the surgery itself is more a delusion than anything. She`s going to look in the mirror and feel better, but it won`t change the fact that by any genetic test she`s still a girl. If all you`re concerned with is her feelings, then by all means let her have the surgery.

  151. Profile photo of imSUPERduper
    imSUPERduper Female 13-17
    59 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:00 pm
    I agree with Stefan. If I believed in unicorns, it would be painful living with the truth that they aren`t real. It could also be a medical condition, if I was crazy. It`s pretty much the same thing. She believes that she is a boy, and it`s painful for her to live with the truth that she is a she. And apparently her issue with that reality is a medical condition.
  152. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:10 pm
    Another issue I see: The body is a temple and God says that one should not "harm" it. Really? How is this harm if it`s stopping pain in someone? Think about it in a different way.
    I have no hand on my left wrist, I was born that way, it came from a condition called ABS. If you think harm is bringing change to my body, am I not allowed to get surgical change done to the body I was born with? God gave me this body, right? There are multiple surgeries to extend the usability in someone with non-fully formed appendages. Hell, hundreds of parents have given their 2 or 3 year old children these surgeries, with or without their consent. No one seems to think this is wrong.
    The case of someone being born in what they consider to be the wrong body has even more evidence to back up their surgery. Gender Dysmorphia is a known condition. It has hundreds of years of history. Virtually no one regrets surgery, and almost everyone says they wished they could`ve done it sooner.
  153. Profile photo of JohnnyDude
    JohnnyDude Male 18-29
    5 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm
    I just read all these comments, and most have made me sick.

    Most of you need to learn the difference between sex (physical) and gender (mental). They do not always match. When they don`t, the most logical step is to match the body to the mind, rather than vice versa--because trying to match the mind to the body does not work.

    As the child of a transsexual mother, I find the whole explanation ending in "eunuchs on drugs" horribly offensive.

    And bringing god into this is ridiculous. If there is a god, I think he`d want people to live in a way that made them happy, rather than suffer in the wrong body their entire lives. Oh, wait, I forgot who I`m talking about. God likes suffering.

    I feel sorry for the kid in question here.

  154. Profile photo of StefanM
    StefanM Male 18-29
    63 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:24 pm
    The difference between your condition and hers is dramatic. You were missing a hand, which is a physical condition. This girl has a mental condition (and I don`t think anyone is arguing that it`s not). I don`t think anyone will argue that surgery to repair damage or improve the use of one`s body is harm in any sense. I will argue, however, that using surgery (especially such a life-altering procedure) to help someone cope with pain and confusion is wrong. Along those same lines, I think people who get plastic surgery for no other reason than vanity need to look inward. There`s something deeper going on here.

    I would argue that a superficial change, while it can in fact make her feel better, ignores the underlying mental condition. Unless that is dealt with in a proper manner, I wager she`ll run into more problems further down the road.

  155. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:26 pm
    (I use "he" for politeness. It`s enough being the wrong gender without society treating you as that)
    Stefan, you are quite right that he will never EVER be a true male. But he has a much better chance than I do.

    He, at an early age, will have delayed his female puberty. When he is older and can make an informed decision, he really is going to look like a he.

    I am not.

  156. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:27 pm
    (that was replying to stefan`s comments on page 6, I haven`t read 7 yet, just so you know)
  157. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 3:30 pm
    (in reply to page 7 from stefan)

    It is a physically problem. It is that the physical side does not match the mental side. They both don`t match up. It`s not because he`s mental. You can`t change someone`s mind, but you can change their body.

  158. Profile photo of Berberry
    Berberry Female 18-29
    161 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:04 pm
    Wow, that is literally all i can say... and that... and that... and that..and that and that and that. and that :)
  159. Profile photo of StefanM
    StefanM Male 18-29
    63 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:07 pm
    "You can`t change someone`s mind, but you can change their body."

    By that argument we should do away with the whole of psychology and counseling. But, for the sake of argument, let`s say you`re right. There is no possible way for her to be reconciled with her natural body (and I use feminine pronouns despite it being politically incorrect because it`s the truth of the matter, which I value above anyone`s personal feelings). Where do you draw the line? If I was born with the idea that I was actually a dolphin, and I could not be reconciled through therapy, should I try to have some transformational operation?

    Now, you may say that she`s not trying to change her species, which I think any of us would think is ridiculous. But, if I truly could not be happy in a human body, would I have the same support? If not, by what right do you place her pain and suffering over mine? If so, we`re just going to have agree to disagree.

  160. Profile photo of JohnnyDude
    JohnnyDude Male 18-29
    5 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:17 pm
    I`ve heard of a woman who lived as a dog (no clothes, no blankets, no shelter except her `mate` and a doghouse, with a friend taking care of her). Also, the man who modified his body to look like a lizard, down to the forked tongue and tattooed `scales`. Transspecism. Maybe it will catch on.
  161. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:28 pm
    If you extracted the cerebrospinal fluid from her brain and tested it you would find that her brain is female, just like the rest of her. The girl has delusions. It`s npt a boy in the wrong body, it`s a confused, delusional girl. Has anyone studied the long term effects of giving male hormones to a female? Once she starts the hormone treatements she has to continue with anrdogen treatments to prevent symptoms of hormone deprivation and osteoporosis. Is it a good idea to administer hormones that will bring about known medical problems to help someone live out their delusion?
  162. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 4:53 pm
    Um. Am I the only one who thinks this is ok?
  163. Profile photo of misscutieroo
    misscutieroo Female 18-29
    1944 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:02 pm
    then a month after the surgery, he/she will want to go back to it`s original sex!

    just my prediction

  164. Profile photo of eeeriddler08
    eeeriddler08 Female 13-17
    375 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:11 pm
    i dont think it is so bad. i would have made her wait a few years longer to ensure that is what she wants, because at 12 i know i was afraid of starting my period. that`s common (at least in my group it was common). but, if she wants to be a boy, more power to her, i would have just made her/him wait a while longer.
  165. Profile photo of sleepingsun
    sleepingsun Male 18-29
    163 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:42 pm
    Nazarene, you`re making the assumption there that the child will want to come off the hormones. Chances are almost 100% the child will not stop taking the hormones, and so will not suffer the side effects. And misscutieroo, chances are equally high the child will not want to switch back if at 18 they decide to take the surgery, by then the child will have experienced life with a male body, and will know if it`s what they want for the rest of their life, and so will not regret if they opt for surgery.
  166. Profile photo of 3R1N
    3R1N Female 13-17
    141 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 5:57 pm
    the child cant have surgery until it is 18, its just she can have hormone blockers, so she doesnt become a woman.
    She is doing anything completely irreversible now, she might change her mind.
    But it gives her an option.

    Then again, there are lots of cases of people who get gender reassignment surgery, who go back to the gender they were born.
    Which makes me wonder if they actually thought it through.
    How could you have life changing surgery, and then decide it was a mistake?

  167. Profile photo of SilentAlarm
    SilentAlarm Female 18-29
    57 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 6:25 pm
    She has insulted the whole female population.
  168. Profile photo of Nazarene
    Nazarene Male 50-59
    187 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 6:30 pm
    3r1n, It is not completely reversible. If she takes the hormones for any length of time her voice will be permanently altered, her clitoris will grow enormously, and she will suffer sever side effects is she ever quits the hormones.
  169. Profile photo of PopeBenedict
    PopeBenedict Male 70 & Over
    504 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 11:27 pm
    meh
  170. Profile photo of Apple_18
    Apple_18 Female 18-29
    475 posts
    May 27, 2008 at 11:43 pm
    I saw this thing on discovery health, where people went to cut off theyre own arms and legs because it was a "gut instinct" opiebreath, i dont know what was said past page one, but you seem pretty ignorant in your last post on that page. ....Otherwise, i agree with Nazarene. 12 year olds dont know what they want. ...i hope this kid, and others like it do get these changes and i hope that at least 75% of them were wrong in thinking thats what they wanted...just so me and Nasarene can laugh at them.
  171. Profile photo of wangomango
    wangomango Male 18-29
    77 posts
    May 28, 2008 at 12:14 am
    This again, I`m so over this stuff. Let her have two penis if she wants, who cares.
  172. Profile photo of DDylan
    DDylan Male 13-17
    98 posts
    May 28, 2008 at 1:29 am
    Nazarene, you are confusing what he is taking. Here in the UK, you can take hormone treatment at 16 (woot, i just became 16, I should be starting my sex change in a few months *crosses fingers*)

    But he is taking hormone blockers, not hormones. Hormones are partly irreversible, and have all the things you say.
    But hormone blockers are reversible.

    Hormone blockers can only be taken, for FtM`s, at age 12 max. It has to be done before puberty, obviously, if it`s going to delay puberty. Puberty is irreversible. My puberty was at age 11. So I don`t think he is at all early in his decision.

  173. Profile photo of tomboygirl12
    tomboygirl12 Female 13-17
    321 posts
    May 28, 2008 at 7:01 am
    I`m not saying this is completely right or completely wrong, but there is a very good reason she would want to do this considering how she`s treated like a boy and her mother deserting her and such.

    personally, i don`t agree with surgery that "corrects" your appearance when its not really necessary (that includes sex changes, plastic surgery for a victim in a serious fire is not included in that) But you cant always change other peoples opinions with your own. oh well. :-|

  174. Profile photo of PaulaJenel
    PaulaJenel Female 50-59
    9 posts
    May 28, 2008 at 8:37 pm
    There are some truly ignorant post here, and some good ones. First I am Transsexual so I might just know a little about this subject. Nazarene, you have several post about coming of hormones. This boy is not taking Hormones at this time, only meds to delay puberty. Why is that so hard to understand. There is no surgery planed, all there doing is giving this child a window of opportunity. There seem to be a lot of back seat Psychologist commenting here, why not take the ear plugs out and listen to the real ones. Unless you are Transsexual you have no idea what it is like.

    Fact; Most T/S people are aware very early in life useually by age 5 - 6

    Fact; Left untreated a T/S person will suffer long term depression, anxiety attacks, severe anger, many times do poorly in school, broken relationships, greatly increased risk of suicide. Treated a T/S person will go on to have a normal productive life, the suicide rate drops below the national averages.

  175. Profile photo of PaulaJenel
    PaulaJenel Female 50-59
    9 posts
    May 28, 2008 at 8:56 pm
    Fact; Transition is the only recognized treatment for a T/S person with a success rate of over 98%. Here are some links. Go educate your self people.

    http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/c...

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content...

    http://www.kisa.ca/respect.html

    http://www.mhsanctuary.com/gender/dsm.ht...

    http://www.whosoever.org/v2Issue2/starch...

  176. Profile photo of RyuTsurugi
    RyuTsurugi Male 13-17
    53 posts
    May 28, 2008 at 10:11 pm
    and THIS is why i hate news...ITS HER OWN F*CKING CHOICE!! you don`t like it? to bad. her choice.Or his as the case may be.
  177. Profile photo of Bridget49
    Bridget49 Female 13-17
    231 posts
    June 3, 2008 at 5:53 pm
    That`s not right.
    I`m not saying I have any problem with people changing genders, but twelve?!
    That`s TOO young.

    At twelve, you can barely decide what you want to do over the summer, let alone decide what GENDER you want to be!

    That judge is not right in the head. >.<

  178. Profile photo of Picasims
    Picasims Male 18-29
    26 posts
    June 3, 2008 at 8:48 pm
    Children as young as 6 sometimes know that they are in the wrong body.
  179. Profile photo of Radio_Jack
    Radio_Jack Male 13-17
    10 posts
    June 13, 2008 at 11:44 pm
    "She has insulted the whole female population." -SilentAlarm

    LOL Please she`s made a small step who the whole world and thank god the judge allowed it for those who know what it`s like.

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