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Date: 03/07/08 06:10 AM

206 Responses to US Army Soldier Punished for Being Atheist

  1. Profile photo of triplej
    triplej Male 30-39
    382 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:14 am
    Link: US Army Soldier Punished for Being Atheist - He claims he was denied his constitutional right to hold a meeting with others to discuss atheism while serving in Iraq.
  2. Profile photo of kairobert
    kairobert Male 18-29
    1623 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:16 am
    Christianity sucks.
    BTW FIRST
  3. Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:22 am
    Can we PLEASE stop this religion bashing, I know 90% of the population of the internet are athiests, but it is getting annoying.
  4. Profile photo of jdelaney
    jdelaney Female 18-29
    82 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:23 am
    You`d think he could just be quiet during a prayer and get over it...
  5. Profile photo of bombsquad505
    bombsquad505 Female 18-29
    322 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:26 am
    I agree completely, jdelaney. And being that a judge threw out his lawsuit against the air force a few years ago, I don`t see this one having a leg to stand on.
  6. Profile photo of Pabasa
    Pabasa Male 18-29
    4012 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:28 am
    Incoming debate between atheism and religion in 3...2...
  7. Profile photo of Axium
    Axium Male 18-29
    296 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:29 am
    but what can an athiest meeting be about anyway? Nothing good I `spect.
  8. Profile photo of Pabasa
    Pabasa Male 18-29
    4012 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:31 am
    So... being an atheist also includes being an ass. Who knew.

    You don`t have to pray, but you do have to respect people who do.

    - also applies on the flip side of the coin - you can`t force everyone to pray either.

  9. Profile photo of kairobert
    kairobert Male 18-29
    1623 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:32 am
    1...

    Christianity has caused so much pain and suffering.
    If you stop using the swastika as a sign of luck because Hitler used it, then you should stop using the cross as a sign of love since hundreds of tyrants have used it.

  10. Profile photo of Mani-Jac
    Mani-Jac Male 40-49
    805 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:33 am
    "Maj. Freddy J. Welborn was named in the lawsuit as the officer who prevented Hall from holding a meeting of atheists and non-Christians. It alleges that Welborn threatened to file military charges against Hall and to block his re-enlistment."

    As you can see it`s not just about shutting up at prayer time, and the judge threw out a lawsuit by Weinstein, who is the founder of the religious freedom foundation. The soldiers name is Jeremy Hall...

    Did you guys read the article at all??

  11. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:35 am
    ^ I was one of the few that did, but I wanted to argue about atheism, not this.
  12. Profile photo of Kaleotera
    Kaleotera Female 18-29
    472 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:41 am
    Im not going to join in the debate that will insue over religion and atheism. I will say this much, there is too much "drawning of lines".They are trying to define everything, even things so minute that it isnt worth getting in a fuss over. I wont say the guy was right or wrong, but I think theres one peice of advice that would help on this. "Pick your battles".

    Kairobert, quit being a mindless follow the pack anti christian. You, the first poster with nothing to say, then wait until other people post to spew your non-sensical blither.
    You couldnt be content just posting on the actual topic/link. No you had to go and start the debate with throwing the first handful of poo, thus getting the poo fest going. Congradulations, moron.

  13. Profile photo of Pabasa
    Pabasa Male 18-29
    4012 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:41 am
    Yes I read the article, but it seemed to me that the resentment and the urge to hold an atheist meeting (the lawsuit) was because his promotion was blocked, which in turn was because his superiors didn`t like the way he didn`t join in the prayers or something.

    So yeah, cause of problem was still from the praying thingamabob.

  14. Profile photo of Mani-Jac
    Mani-Jac Male 40-49
    805 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:43 am
    If you want to argue about atheism why don`t you follow this link

    Argue

  15. Profile photo of Mr_Sir
    Mr_Sir Male 18-29
    576 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:47 am

  16. Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:47 am
    The problem w/ news articles written about lawsuits is you usually only get one side of the story. The plaintiff can tell his/her side but the defend can`t tell their`s until court. This becomes a problem when you have a person like kairobert who already has his mind made up w/o hearing the whole story and is intolerant of other people`s belief besides his own.
  17. Profile photo of Burton_Ian
    Burton_Ian Male 18-29
    815 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:52 am
    ha ohhh geeez, I can understand why he`d wanna sue, but that really only gave one side of the story since it was probably him that contacted the media
  18. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:03 am
    "Can we PLEASE stop this religion bashing..."

    What does this have to do with bashing religion? It`s bashing institutionalized religion, which is to say policies that promote one religion over another (or in this case, Christianity over atheism). The platoon sergeant is full of sh*t if he thinks soldiers cannot reconcile people in their unit having opposed views on religion, and the soldiers themselves are cowardly and immature if they are unable to do so. Prayer should not be made mandatory for this precise reason, and I`m surprised it`s considered such in the military. How backwards is this country?

  19. Profile photo of bombsquad505
    bombsquad505 Female 18-29
    322 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:07 am
    I don`t think that the issue here is prayer being mandatory, Overmann, but rather that the military was worried that this man would not pray with his troops if they requested him to...which leads me to believe that this man is intolerant of religions other than his own.
  20. Profile photo of quick_sand8
    quick_sand8 Female 40-49
    466 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:09 am
    I am Jewish. I have been to functions where people pray before the meal, or at a service etc. So although I am not an avid practicing Jew, or discredit Christianity or any religion, I may not agree or believe what others believe, I still have respect for where I was, bowed my head and said Amen when it was over! Limited time on this planet we humans have, "my rights" to practice Atheism,Satanism, etc..bunch of blow holes!!!
    If it`s stopping you from entering the grocery store, or paying your electric bill, then you got something to bitch about!! Religious fanaticism is why we have wars today and Century after Century in the past. What a waste of any Judicial system, and people wonder how lawyers get shady! Stupid dumbass lawsuits like this one!!
  21. Profile photo of patthebaker
    patthebaker Male 18-29
    1768 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:18 am
    look can we go a weak without a religious argument its terring iab apart just learn to respect, no one going to win.
  22. Profile photo of Icicle0424
    Icicle0424 Male 18-29
    14 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:21 am
    @bombsquad: He shouldn`t be required to pray with his troops if he doesn`t believe in such, that isn`t intolerance... or am I misunderstanding your post?

    that said, what would an atheist meeting be about anyhow? As an atheist myself, I`d like to know...
    "Hey Dale, believe in God?"
    "Nope"
    "Me neither. Meeting over, see ya next week"

  23. Profile photo of patthebaker
    patthebaker Male 18-29
    1768 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:22 am
    new argument turkey or ham which is better fight about that
  24. Profile photo of clc2275
    clc2275 Male 40-49
    41 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:29 am
    You don`t have to pray, but you do have to respect people who do......mmmmm would that apply to most things?....like smoking or drinking or working? you don`t have to do any of those things but you should give some respect to those people that do???? or should you say till it bothers someone or effects someone else?
  25. Profile photo of Pabasa
    Pabasa Male 18-29
    4012 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:39 am
    ^ If you`re taking the example of smoking, where scientific evidence clearly proves that secondhand smoking is dangerous, then even if I respect people who smoke (which I do), they`re not respecting MY health by smoking near me. So it`s common courtesy to smoke somewhere else.

    Give and take, you see?

  26. Profile photo of engelbert
    engelbert Female 18-29
    236 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:15 am
    It isn`t his obligation as a soldier to pray. I highly doubt that, while his colleagues prayed, he stood there with his fingers in his ears going "LA LA LA LA LA". It`s more than likely that he stood there, silent, or just didn`t involve himself in the situation at all.

    A meeting to discuss Atheism is perfectly plausible. As an Atheist among Christians, I`ve often at times felt quite the outcast. Perhaps they were meetings with other Atheists to support eachother and have some sort of solidarity? Perhaps they get ridiculed for being Atheist and feel a need to discuss it? Christians go to church to be among other Christians, so what`s to stop Atheists from doing the same?

  27. Profile photo of clc2275
    clc2275 Male 40-49
    41 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:33 am
    Pabasa i am all for give and take! it is just when people go overboard that we have problems. if i am smoking in a room that allows smoking and a non-smoker walks in and request that i put out my smoke for their health,then i have a problem. As far as health, religion has caused more wars than anything else,(wars have been determind to cause death).
  28. Profile photo of ciaran036
    ciaran036 Male 18-29
    168 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:37 am
    wtf? If anyone ever does this to you - slap them right in the face!
  29. Profile photo of KoalaMeatPie
    KoalaMeatPie Male 18-29
    2578 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:54 am
    odeed:

  30. Profile photo of Lauraly
    Lauraly Female 18-29
    2259 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:57 am
    Pabasa, I suggest you go and read that article again. Hall had tried to have an atheist meeting, and was denied by his superiors. He filed a lawsuit because his constitutional rights were being violated. After he filed the lawsuit an officer sent out a mass email informing everyone of the lawsuit and that Hall was the person who filed. Once people got that news, they decided that he was unfit for a promotion. Hall then amended his original lawsuit to include the discrimination the army put him through by blocking his promotion.
    The only time prayers were mentioned in the article was when it talked about a conversation Hall had with his sergeant. His sergeant said that he was not fit for the promotion because in the eyes of the army he would not be able to pray with his troops before setting out on a mission, and thus wouldn`t be able to bond with his troops; it was not because Hall had previously refused to pray.
  31. Profile photo of Lauraly
    Lauraly Female 18-29
    2259 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:22 am
    You could make that assumption, but it is never stated in the article that Hall had ever refused to pray with the others.
    And, many of you said how you should respect people who do pray by going along, but then contradict yourself by agreeing that people shouldn`t force others to pray. Which is it? You have to pray even if you don`t believe in it so that you don`t hurt those who do prays` feelings or that you shouldn`t be forced to do something that makes you uncomfortable?

    The fact of the matter is this, Christians make up the majority of the population and therefore they will constantly be surrounded by like-minded people. It should not matter if there are people who simply don`t want to go along with prayer. If you force this man to join in to secure his promotion and career then what is to stop you from making all people all over the world go to church in order to ensure that they will have equal rights? I know that is a bit far-fetched, but change takes place in small steps.

  32. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:26 am
    Sounds like something from the Taliban, but no, it`s the American army this time. Strange.
  33. Profile photo of Pabasa
    Pabasa Male 18-29
    4012 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:30 am
    lauraly, after re-reading the article, you are indeed correct, and I indeed read it wrongly. I apologize.

    I didn`t contradict myself - I said people need to respect the others to pray. If a society requires people to pray in an event, and you are required to be in the event, you shouldn`t have to pray along, but you don`t have to make a fuss out of it.

    Admittedly I was *assuming* he was making a fuss out of the prayers, because if he wasn`t he wouldn`t have attracted the attention of the platoon sergeant. Still, it`s quite a significant assumption, which is possibly untrue.

    I really should stay out of atheism vs religion debates, because I`d be a hypocrite: I`m a religious person and I dislike how much a fuss the atheists are making, yet I`m gay and I myself make a lot of fuss with regards to equality.

    I`ll back out with a white flag waving. I shouldn`t even be here ^^

  34. Profile photo of bpthompson
    bpthompson Male 18-29
    9 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:40 am
    I, too, am an atheist in the US Army. I have noticed that the Army does lean towards Christian beliefs and practices. Attend any military ceremony and expect to participate in some sort of prayer prior to and sometimes afterwards.

    I do find it appalling that this soldier would be denied promotion. Once you go to a promotion board, unless you have some sort of UCMJ action your promotion can not be blocked. This sounds like a valid EO/JAG complaint.

  35. Profile photo of _Requiem_
    _Requiem_ Female 18-29
    469 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:45 am
    Aww, KoalaMeatPie beat me to the picture.
  36. Profile photo of Tekno
    Tekno Female 30-39
    1212 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:53 am
    "I said people need to respect the others to pray. If a society requires people to pray in an event, and you are required to be in the event, you shouldn`t have to pray along, but you don`t have to make a fuss out of it."
    I agree. Enough said. :)
  37. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:54 am
    Damn you Koala, that`s one of my favorite pictures for this sort of situation.

    The religion bias in the US military (Well, the US in general) is astounding. Ever heard the phrase `No atheists in foxholes`?

    I wish it were true- that would mean that without religion, war is impossible.

  38. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:55 am
    "In the military, all are equal and to be considered equal."

    I call bullpoo.

  39. Profile photo of phinphan
    phinphan Male 30-39
    139 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:05 am
    GOD should mean good ordinary decisions .
    George Carlon said it best. Religion is the greatest
    trick mankind has ever pulled off.Convincing everyone that there is a man up in the clouds watching everything everyone does so give your money
    to our church.hahahaha Kinda sounds like a children`s story.Santa Claus
  40. Profile photo of Lauraly
    Lauraly Female 18-29
    2259 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:06 am
    Pabasa, it`s my turn to apologize to you. I wrote my response without checking back to make sure I was commenting only on what you said. I had mixed up sentiments made by quick_sand8 with your views. (She claimed that when in a religious situation, when the views differed from hers that she would bow her head and say amen when required.) I apologize; you didn`t contradict yourself.
  41. Profile photo of kairobert
    kairobert Male 18-29
    1623 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:12 am
    Religious practise is a plague. And you cannot torture and execute me for blasphemy this time, you can`t find me.

    BTW for all you Christian hill billies in the US, I am not against religion, I only believe that religious thoughts should be kept in ones mind and not have an influence on your actions. There are just too many cases where religion has been an obstacle for mankind.

  42. Profile photo of bmachine82
    bmachine82 Male 18-29
    30 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:14 am
    Atheism is not a religion, it is the lack of religion.What exactly do you talk about in a meeting for atheists. "well don`t believe in God, how bout you?", "Nope me neither." I mean this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. You don`t practice atheism you just don`t do anything. I love God, and I think if you can`t look around you and see God does exist than you must be blind.
  43. Profile photo of engelbert
    engelbert Female 18-29
    236 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:16 am
    ^ Close-minded person. Right there.
  44. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:23 am
    The military is pretty intolerant of any beliefs that interfere with the military unit, regardless of wether or not they are Christian. A girl I know was actually disciplined when her commanding officer asked her if she thought he would go to hell for not believing in God, and all she said was "yes, that`s what I believe". The lawsuit seems more aimed at forcing change in the military then protecting the mans rights. Also if a majority of the people in the army are religious then what harm is there in having officers pray with the troops? Regardless of your "rights" it would help your unit. If I was with a group of Muslims or Budhists I would be respectful of them and bow my head (or whatever else is appropriate) but that wouldn`t mean they are forcing me to pray. Seems like most atheists are as intolerant of other religions as most religions are of them. Also I agree with one of the previous posters that this sight has turned into alot of religious bashing lately,
  45. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:23 am
    religions are stupid.... and you are all stupid for arguing about religion if this discussion goes on until somebody makes a valid point.... it would go on forever...

    Am sure God didnt want this....com on wwjd

  46. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:26 am
    hey koala just out of curiosity.. what is that graph showing....what is it graphing and where

    just wanna know

  47. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:28 am
    clc....how bout the cold war

    bullets shot by guns cause death
    -realigions cause death
    -so its all good i mean its all the same

  48. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:29 am
    both in the comments section (which IAB thankfully doesn`t censore) and in terms of the articles posted. BTW I`m pretty sure water supplies and land are behind more wars then religion. Just because both sides claim a righteous cause doesn`t make it a religeous war.
  49. Profile photo of lestat221
    lestat221 Male 18-29
    213 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:30 am
    Like the above poster, I too am a atheist (well, agnostic really) soldier, and have noticed the treatment that Christians get. Although you may not like it, most people in the military (and the world) are Christians. I usually just sit there, because it`s not HURTING anyone. Let the Chaplain do his/her thing, then let the ceremony continue. They don`t (in my experience anyways) single you out and what your beliefs are. I`m not sure what to believe, because if what he`s saying truly happened, then I hope he wins his case, but to drag out something that`s not true just because you can`t handle a prayer... well, then he`s just lacking Integrity and Respect (bpthompson will understand haha)
  50. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:31 am
    Tonyjet

    wouldn`t it be more fair to say that people cause death in that case? Would be true at least.

  51. Profile photo of Lauraly
    Lauraly Female 18-29
    2259 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:33 am
    bmachine82, I completely agree with engelbert`s previous statement:
    "Perhaps they were meetings with other Atheists to support each other and have some sort of solidarity? Perhaps they get ridiculed for being Atheist and feel a need to discuss it?"

    There are many times when I feel very uncomfortable when surrounded by people of faith. My boyfriend`s whole family (except for his parents and brother) is very religious, and they constantly talk about going to church and their religious beliefs. To keep from causing an argument, I just walk away from the situation, or keep my mouth shut, but it makes me feel like an outcast. The only thing that helps in those situations is that my boyfriend shares my views, so I don`t have to feel completely alone. It is only natural to want to form a group with people who have a similar perspective, especially when in an organization that encourages Christianity.

  52. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:33 am
    also koala I`m pretty sure I`ve heard people from every religous front, and even atheists and agnostics say they are being oppressed. :-)
  53. Profile photo of Lauraly
    Lauraly Female 18-29
    2259 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:37 am
    penguinfogel, the point of the graph is that Christians are the majority, but when smaller groups say anything against them they claim to being oppressed. As a majority, it`s pretty hard for others to oppress you.
  54. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2279 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:50 am
    "I don`t think that the issue here is prayer being mandatory, Overmann, but rather that the military was worried that this man would not pray with his troops if they requested him to...which leads me to believe that this man is intolerant of religions other than his own."

    No, he just doesn`t believe that prayer has any effect on a person. Which he`s right.

  55. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:50 am
    Bmachine, you must be an idiot to think that anything around you is proof for the existence of God. Please do enlighten the rest of the world, which does not share your belief in this matter and is obviously stupid for it.
  56. Profile photo of Ty-Force
    Ty-Force Male 18-29
    400 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:56 am
    i go by NOFX on this one.

    who cares if he`s atheist?

  57. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:02 am
    I got the point of the graph, but It`s just so..... Oh I don`t know..... Stupid is the word I think I want, or ingnorant, or maybe just warmongering. But no matter where you are people are going to claim they are opressed for their beliefs. Go to a country where the majority is another faith and it will be true there too.

    Also I`m not sure how people claim they feel cast out for their religous beliefs. I`m not saying they`re wrong for feeling that way, just saying I don`t get it. I have friends of different religous backgrounds and their faith never once made me feel left out, even if that`s what they talked about most of the time. Usually I was just content to sit and listen to what they said as long as they didnt attack my beliefs. In fact my girlfriend was raised a jehovas witness and isn`t sure of what she believes in right now, and no matter how much she bashes Christianity I`m not really bothered.

  58. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2279 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:02 am
    "Atheism is not a religion, it is the lack of religion.What exactly do you talk about in a meeting for atheists. "well don`t believe in God, how bout you?", "Nope me neither." I mean this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. You don`t practice atheism you just don`t do anything. I love God, and I think if you can`t look around you and see God does exist than you must be blind."

    What?...are you actually saying that if you take a quick look around, you should be able to conclude in a super power that exceeds all the power and knowledge contained in the universe, by perhaps a cursory glance at a light-switch or something?

    You`re a fu(king idiot.

  59. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:03 am
    meant outcast, not cast out :P
  60. Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:09 am
    Agree completely Pabasa


    Kairobert: You`re a dumbass.
    Christian Hill Billies lol. I wish I could torture you, just for being stupid.

    clc2275: I`m with you on that, if a room is "smoking" and a non-smoker walks in then yes they`re being retarded to ask you to stop, because they should leave. But if you light up beside someone with bad asthma then you`re the one who should move. (given it`s not a proper place to smoke)
    but your second point is right.


    Overmann: Oh you mean the country, that was built upon the beliefs of our founding fathers.

    So on that basis, this country and anything affiliated with it can/will/ and possibly should have the influences of said beliefs. If you`ve got a problem with it too bad.

    You wouldn`t see someone going to another country and not respecting their religious practices and get away with it.
    And if they didn`t like it, they`d grin and bear it because that`s what they practiced and most likely they were founded on. <

  61. Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:11 am
    bpthompson: I`m with you though I think he should have gotten promoted based on merit and not on lack of deity belief.

    lestat221: I`m with you on yours.


    engelbert: you can`t go around calling someone close minded when just a few posts before that you were saying religion/Christianity was a scam. I`d call that pretty close minded.

    lauraly: Well maybe you guys should try discussing differences in beliefs or lack there of. But perhaps one side or the other would feel too heated about the whole ordeal and wouldn`t be able to carry on a civil conversation. But always worth a try.

    In the end I just thought it was funny that he used "religious freedom" to defend his right to meet. It should be the freedom of speech.

  62. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3334 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:12 am
    How dare him! that not the AmeriKKKan way; you must think as a good KKKhristian. becuese if you don`t we will steel your chiden and bet them till they are good white KKKhristians
  63. Profile photo of engelbert
    engelbert Female 18-29
    236 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:16 am
    I didn`t call religion a scam at all. Perhaps you`re reading somebody elses post. I believe in respecting whatever anybody chooses to believe in, but I myself choose to be Atheist. He`s close-minded for saying that people who don`t believe in God are blind, which IS close-mindedness. Perhaps you should get off your high horse and actually read what`s being said.
  64. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:20 am
    "Oh you mean the country, that was built upon the beliefs of our founding fathers.

    So on that basis, this country and anything affiliated with it can/will/ and possibly should have the influences of said beliefs. If you`ve got a problem with it too bad. "

    They created a secular country, which the likes of Bush have undermined.

  65. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:23 am
    Even if there is no God and it`s all a lie, religion isn`t a scam. It provides something for people- comfort.

    People don`t want to face that they will die. How many times do you hear `Come to Jesus and he will make you live forever`? You don`t. Even if Christianity is true, you still die.

    Many people desperately want to believe they can live forever, so it provides a kind of solace. They get something from religion, so it isn`t a scam.

  66. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:47 am
    See your wrong in saying Christians are afriad of dying and so they believe in an afterlife. I know I will die and am completely fine with that. I don`t worry about whether or not there is a heaven, or wether or not what I do matters in there. I simply just live according to my beliefs and values. I know some Christians will say your supposed to be focussed on heaven, but I choose to focus on Christ instead. The problem is just like Christians stereatype atheists you atheists are stereotyping christians. Also if your so against people being brainwashed by religion why do you guys just keep going after Christians on IAB? Is it because you feel we are the majority on here? Just something I`ve been wondering while reading these comments.
  67. Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:49 am
    To the atheist on this page, try and read a book call, "The Science of God" by Gerald L. Schroeder. It makes a pretty good argument about the existence of a Creator(aka God). It talks about the similarities of how science describes the creation of the universe and how the Bible describes it.
    To the Bible believers it also gives good reasons why you should have no problem w/ the theory of evolution.
  68. Profile photo of unbelievable
    unbelievable Male 18-29
    1154 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:52 am
    REPENT AND BELIEVE CHRIST WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY
  69. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:52 am
    "See your wrong in saying Christians are afriad of dying and so they believe in an afterlife."

    No, I`m saying that there are many who are afraid of dying and so they believe in an afterlife. There`s a big difference.

    "Also if your so against people being brainwashed by religion why do you guys just keep going after Christians on IAB?"

    Perhaps because being going after Christians on IAB can hopefully prevent people from being brainwashed by religion?

  70. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:53 am
    "To the atheist on this page, try and read a book call, "The Science of God" by Gerald L. Schroeder. It makes a pretty good argument about the existence of a Creator(aka God). It talks about the similarities of how science describes the creation of the universe and how the Bible describes it.
    To the Bible believers it also gives good reasons why you should have no problem w/ the theory of evolution."

    That book tries to take science and bend it so that the Bible is completely accurate. No thanks.

    "REPENT AND BELIEVE CHRIST WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY"

    REPENT AND BELIEVE THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY

  71. Profile photo of Wey_Pooh
    Wey_Pooh Male 18-29
    1004 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:01 pm
    Guys, let those who want to go to hell go there. Seriously, let people who don`t believe in God live. So we`re going to hell, that`s none of your business, if you can spread your stupid little bible around then we can express ourselves, can`t we? Because that`s what the Bible is, a bunch of crap.
  72. Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:04 pm
    also if you read your history then you`ll know the US wasnt a truly secular country. Many experts agree that the founding fathers weren`t Radical christians, and some of them weren`t christians at all, but their views on the role of government and freedom were strongly influenced by their religous beliefs. Also before anyone misqoutes the constitution, the seperation of church and state is not a constitutional notion and was first mentioned in a letter by penned by Jefferson when he was president. That was back around the time when there was a church in the same building where congress was held. In fact I believe Jefferson attended church there, although I cant remember for certain. Anyway not saying that our country should be forced to be Christian or Atheist, was just explaining some history to show that traditionaly the government didnt draw alot of lines about faith and peoples rights and abilities to practice it.
  73. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:14 pm
    While it is obvious that their beliefs, derived from religion, influenced their decisions, the country was nonetheless largely secular in that church and state were separate in the view of the law. That`s the definition of the word. Nowadays we have the likes of Bush Sr. who believes that atheists aren`t human, and Bush Jr. who uses `God is on our side` as a catch-all phrase to support the war. And this is simply intolerable.
  74. Profile photo of TGPZarquon
    TGPZarquon Male 30-39
    166 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:35 pm
    There is a lot of details the article leaves out. For example, what is meant by saying he was denied an atheists` meeting? Did he mean that his superiors would not allow him to hold a meeting with other atheists on his free time, or did he mean that he wanted to have time off for his meeting, the way they give you time off to go to church?

    However in the personal right he may be (speaking as an agnostic myself) he does seem to want to make a name for himself with his lawsuits. By signaling himself out, it`s not surprising at all that his promotion was flagged. Yes, if you sue the military, they`re going to find a reason to deny you promotion.

  75. Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:38 pm
    Engelbert: That`s my fault, I apologize I glanced at the avatars and saw the same colors it`s

    phinphan

    That I was responding to.


    penguinfogel: Bingo.

    I agree with you on this one. EVERYONE lives according to beliefs and values, some people just give religion or a deity as a justification or basis. That`s fine that`s their focus in life.
    Where as an atheist might focus on something else and live by a different set of beliefs or values. They`ll justify it differently.

  76. Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:39 pm
    catbarf:They created a country based on their religious beliefs. How does Bush fit in? Did he help found the country? No.

    Go back and read the constitution, see how secular it is.

    "Perhaps because being going after Christians on IAB can hopefully...."

    But wouldn`t that make you brainwashed by `anti-religion` retard.

    Have you read the book? NO? that`s what I thought shut the hell up unless you can make a good point. Most of the people here are Atheist, Christian or any other belief or lack of.

    X wrong again.The country was NOT largely secular. And you have your "definition of the word" (dumbass) wrong. It means that the government should not do anything that can be misconstrued as religion.

    I personally don`t see any of the Bush family as being religious or having certain beliefs beyond what was expected for him/them to get elected.

    Your ignorance is astounding.

  77. Profile photo of Mikeado
    Mikeado Male 18-29
    2159 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:49 pm
    America is undeniably too religious for its own good. `Nuff said.
  78. Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 12:52 pm
    Mikeado: You`re mentally challenged. `Nuff said.
  79. Profile photo of bluethen
    bluethen Male 13-17
    616 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:00 pm
    This is bullpoo. Religions are beliefs. Nobody`s forcing you to be Christians, Jews, or anything, and you`re still complaining. Get over it!
  80. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:02 pm
    "But wouldn`t that make you brainwashed by `anti-religion` retard."

    On the contrary, where proof is requested evidence will be given, unlike church in which no proof will be given and instead the same ideas driven in again and again until the concept of an invisible man in the sky starts to make sense.

    "Have you read the book? NO? that`s what I thought shut the hell up unless you can make a good point."

    Have you? NO? Then shut the hell up unless you can make a good point.

    I started the damn thing and gave up when it never even attempted to provide any sort of logic.

  81. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:02 pm
    "X wrong again.The country was NOT largely secular. And you have your "definition of the word" (dumbass) wrong. It means that the government should not do anything that can be misconstrued as religion."

    As defined by Webster-Mirriam:
    "1 a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b: not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c: not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>"

    Freedom of religion is an excellent example. If, as you claimed, the US was not in any way secular, then Christianity would be the dominant, state-funded, legally-required religion. Perhaps they wanted people to have the freedom to differ from their religious views? Ding, secularism.

    "I personally don`t see any of the Bush family as being religious or having certain beliefs beyond what was expected for him/them to get elected."

    Your ignorance is astounding.

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:04 pm
    http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm

    Have a read.

    "Mikeado: You`re mentally challenged. `Nuff said."

    Do please tell how having a president who sees himself as a holy crusader is a good thing. How exactly does overt religion help the country?

  • Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:10 pm
    catbarf: how does that book try and "bend" science? And what do you mean by brainwashed? Is someone who grew up in communist Russia but now agrees w/ democracy considered brainwashed? Or would you consider someone who grew up learning Islam but now is an atheist having been brainwashed because he changed his mind about Allah. Maybe you have been brainwashed by the many people who like to use the term brainwash to describe someone w/ different view on life. Poor naive catbarf. Maybe once you leave puberty you`ll understand that because someone has a different view then you, or heaven forbid is a Christian, doesn`t mean that they have been "brainwashed".
  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:13 pm
    Catbarf: It makes for Freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Thus meaning that the country was founded on religious freedom, the opposite of secular.

    Who said it wasn`t "in any way" secular? I said it wasn`t founded on Secular Ideas

    You stopped reading the book when you couldn`t understand anything, the same point when you stopped paying attention to anything that has an IQ above 24
    Where the hell do you keep bringing up the president? And why? It`s about the country being founded not the Dumb ass in command.

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:18 pm
    "catbarf: how does that book try and "bend" science? And what do you mean by brainwashed? Is someone who grew up in communist Russia but now agrees w/ democracy considered brainwashed? Or would you consider someone who grew up learning Islam but now is an atheist having been brainwashed because he changed his mind about Allah. Maybe you have been brainwashed by the many people who like to use the term brainwash to describe someone w/ different view on life. Poor naive catbarf. Maybe once you leave puberty you`ll understand that because someone has a different view then you, or heaven forbid is a Christian, doesn`t mean that they have been "brainwashed"."

    Someone who follows one faith and then decides to leave is not brainwashed.

    Someone brought up in one religion, forced into it every day, taught never to question their beliefs and to shun any who oppose them- yes, I would suggest that fits the bill.

  • Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:31 pm
    is there such a thing as believing in God but hating religion
  • Profile photo of EstiloPanama
    EstiloPanama Female 18-29
    2074 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:33 pm
    Any kind of organized `religion` is an ugly thing.

    Very, very ugly.

    I don`t think it`s ever okay, though, to try and shove religion down each other`s throats. I believe what I believe. I won`t deny what I believe and may even express it. But I can`t force ANYONE to share the same exact opinions, because religion is a personal thing.

    I just can never be part of any organized religion.

    So Ironic that Christianity has, indeed, caused many, many deaths. That`s true irony right there. Not only Christianity, but all types of religions. It`s very sad, and contradictory to most belief systems...

    Well, it`s something that`s not worth discussing, because like I said earlier, no one can change anyone else`s mind....it`s a very personal thing.

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:37 pm
    "Catbarf: It makes for Freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Thus meaning that the country was founded on religious freedom, the opposite of secular."

    Where does the difference lie? If state is truly divorced from church, there is no practical difference. In either case the government is still unaffected by religion.

    "You stopped reading the book when you couldn`t understand anything, the same point when you stopped paying attention to anything that has an IQ above 24"

    I should like to point out that an inanimate object would quite simply have an IQ of 0, as it lacks intelligence. I do not dismiss the book on complexity, I dismiss it on the grounds that the writer is a sensationalist at best and offensive at worst.

    This is a writer who claims that science proves that humans only existed less than 6,000 years ago (patently false), cites Time Magazine and New York Times for his information, and states that God exists at the speed of light.

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:37 pm
    "... erosion of biblical understanding is tragic, and we`ve paid a price for it.... Our 60% divorce rate and the double locks on our doors provide a succinct summary of the effect."

    "Where the hell do you keep bringing up the president? And why? It`s about the country being founded not the Dumb ass in command. "

    I bring up the current president to contest the notion that overt religion is a good thing.

  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:44 pm
    woohoo another atheist vs christians pissing contest (sarcasm)

    way to go Catbarf and Liquidglass

  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 1:48 pm
    just read the article you linked too catbarf.

    rofl that was funny as all get out.

    I love loaded articles from any side of the spectrum, they are just entertaining.

  • Profile photo of engelbert
    engelbert Female 18-29
    236 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 2:05 pm
    Liquidglass, how about you stop throwing insults around and take into consideration that people have other opinions to your own?
  • Profile photo of Lauraly
    Lauraly Female 18-29
    2259 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 2:36 pm
    Tonyjet, yes. You can believe in a higher being without subscribing to organized religion. In my opinion, you should form your beliefs based on what speaks to your heart, and that means you can take ideas or teachings from all sorts of different religions, and yet not agree that organized religion should be around.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 2:43 pm
    so what if someone believes in organized religion because it speaks to their heart Lauraly? I have no issue with people believing what they want, but I do thinks it`s silly to pick and choose from different religions. Doesn`t it defeat the point of religion? For example if I believe in reincarnation, but also believe muhammed was a profit and Jesus was the son of God then how do I reconcile those beliefs unless I throw all other aspects of those religions out, which would then eliminate any reason for me to believe any of those things to be true..... not sure if I made sense or not.
  • Profile photo of Egomie
    Egomie Male 18-29
    33 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 2:54 pm
    okay....this has shifted waaay away from the military towards religion. however....the basic problem you all fail to see is: if you join the military, you should be prepared to be told how to act. seriously, if they flatout TOLD you to pray(tho they didnt) you should pray. you aren`t supposed to act like an individual when ur in the armed forces......so if everyone else is praying, bow ur drating head and stfu.
  • Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 2:57 pm
    catbarf: My point is anybody could call anybody who goes against their beliefs brainwashed. You direct your comments at Christians and call them names because they believe in God. I`m just saying that because someone is a Christian doesn`t mean they don`t think for themselves.
  • Profile photo of Red5TheFinn
    Red5TheFinn Male 13-17
    1556 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 3:03 pm
    how bout we all eat some cake and stop arguing about this. How bet we all make bets and collect our cash at the underworlds water cooler?
  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 3:22 pm
    Egomie: Joining the military does not involve giving up your basic Constitutional rights.

    Spiff: Oh, I understand now. I`m not calling all Christians brainwashed. I`m encouraging people to challenge their beliefs, to look past what their local priest tells them and to really examine what they hold to be true. The unfortunate truth is that in many parts of this country and others, people are raised in a sheltered environment such that the beliefs of the local community are indoctrinated in them from a very young age. This is brainwashing- the instilling of beliefs through repetition and pressure rather than logic and reasoning. This occurs in any area where there is a very strongly dominant religion. In the US, it is Christianity. In the Middle East, it is Islam. Atheists try to provide a challenge to these views, in the hopes that they will make the other person consider and evaluate their beliefs based on evidence and reasons that would otherwise never be encountered.

  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 3:26 pm
    Catbarf:
    So you have to follow something and then shun it to be classified as not brainwashed?

    The difference? The difference is that Freedom of religion (is freedom to chose your religion and to not be regulated) but freedom from religion means that you shun all forms of religion.

    I didn`t say the book had an IQ I was giving another example of when you stop paying attention, but seeing as you couldn`t understand that simple statement I guess you proved my point.

    You dismiss the book because you don`t agree with the writer and the presentation of what he believes to be true.
    Which is to say you either don`t agree because A) You have some intelligent thought that would allow you to disagree even if it was the worst written piece in history
    or B) you don`t agree because you can`t grasp concepts that you haven`t been taught all your life (this pertains to the book, and your life: aka the point I was trying to make earlier that you didn`t get)

  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 3:27 pm
    Where as the point earlier where I said that no one in the Bush family is very religious beyond what it takes to get votes. No one said OVERT religion was good. It`s about acceptance of each others ideas and beliefs.

    Thanks penguinfogel


    engelbert: lol I am taking that into consideration, which is why I don`t care what religion or belief someone holds. I`m simply challenging others that seem one sided.

    I`ll throw insults about as I please. Why don`t you take into consideration that I might view what I do as best expressing my opinion of a poorly stated argument. Where as you might see it as an insult. Or are you not that open minded?

    How about you read everything to see that I`m coming from more than one side before your comments match your avatar.

  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 3:29 pm
    EstiloPanama: I agree and disagree with you.

    1) disagree: organized religion is a great thing, it`s just like any organized belief or cause. It`s good to bring people together (if that is indeed it`s purpose)


    Disagree: CHRISTIANITY has not caused death. PEOPLE have caused deaths and using religion as an excuse.

    But on the flip side I agree that it`s retarded so many deaths have occurred under a flag of any religion.

    2) agree: That You shouldn`t shove stuff down other peoples throats. You should be open to talk about it, but not trying to FORCE someone to believe something.

    But unfortunately that`s what gives any religion (Christianity) in this case a bad name because of extremists.

    Penguinfogel: I think I understand where you`re coming from on your point. I`ve always wondered why it`s not accepted to believe in a blend of religious ideals. (if that`s where you were going with that)

  • Profile photo of The_Frogg
    The_Frogg Male 18-29
    619 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 3:33 pm
    I like how people say they follow all the rules of the bible but, like, they dojn`t sell there daughters to slavery (bible aproves of)
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:04 pm
    First off it would be a Jewish law from the bible, and second is it the actual bible that says it? Or ist it Hebrew law? (I`ll have to look it up later) I actually have no problem with slavery (im so gonna get blasted for saying that, but it`s what I believe). Have you ever actually read for yourself the biblical passages covering slavery btw? In todays modern world slavery in any form or condition is considered unacceptable, so why would you expect christians to practice it? I love it when people pull out obscure Jewish laws and say if your a christian then you believe this and that. did you ever think that the laws were made to deal with how Jewish people handled their religion within the society they were in. Not saying thats what this one was meant to do, just addressing that idea in general.

    Also Liquidglass I was going the opposite way with it. I`ve never understood how people can pull parts of relgions that contradict each other and say that`s what they believe. The example..

  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:11 pm
    The example I brought up isn`t one I just made up on the spot. I happened to be refering to my friends beliefs. They believe in the bible accept for certain parts which they think were made up to justify killing animals, and they also believe that mohammed was a profit sent by God and that Jesus was the son of God, not to mention reincarnation as animals and other beliefs from other religions.
  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:26 pm
    "The difference? The difference is that Freedom of religion (is freedom to chose your religion and to not be regulated) but freedom from religion means that you shun all forms of religion."

    Secular does not imply shunning religion. It is simply a separation.

    "I didn`t say the book had an IQ I was giving another example of when you stop paying attention, but seeing as you couldn`t understand that simple statement I guess you proved my point."

    My mistake, it was a simply misinterpretation of the following:

    "You stopped reading the book when you couldn`t understand anything, the same point when you stopped paying attention to anything that has an IQ above 24"

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:28 pm
    "You dismiss the book because you don`t agree with the writer and the presentation of what he believes to be true.
    Which is to say you either don`t agree because A) You have some intelligent thought that would allow you to disagree even if it was the worst written piece in history
    or B) you don`t agree because you can`t grasp concepts that you haven`t been taught all your life (this pertains to the book, and your life: aka the point I was trying to make earlier that you didn`t get)"

    I am quite familiar with the concepts outlined in the book. The fact is that it does not require concepts to be taught for a lifetime in order to understand that the claims made are patently false. Case in point: Age of man.

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:41 pm
    "Where as the point earlier where I said that no one in the Bush family is very religious beyond what it takes to get votes. No one said OVERT religion was good. It`s about acceptance of each others ideas and beliefs."

    Not sure what you`re trying to prove here, but I would say that believing that atheists do not deserve citizenship is rather overt. As, I would say, is the constant reassurance that God is on our side in the current war.

    "Disagree: CHRISTIANITY has not caused death. PEOPLE have caused deaths and using religion as an excuse."

    Bull. Galileo, Islamic terrorists, the Crusades- all were/are DIRECTLY motivated by religion. Galileo was attacked because his views disagreed with those of the Bible. Islamic terrorists are following their religion by killing infidels. The Crusades were an effort to spread Christianity to the Middle East.

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:43 pm
    Hitler himself used religious imagery and references to convince the German Christians that he was a gift from God.

    While I agree that religion is rarely the *sole* cause of conflicts, it is often one of the largest.

  • Profile photo of oleblue
    oleblue Male 40-49
    3 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:45 pm
    I was in the Army for nine years and all this talk of religion in the military seems odd considering most of the people in the Military that I know were non-religious. Very few people I knew ever went to church.

    In my class at Basic Non-Commissioned officer course everyone was an atheist. They could not find anyone to lead in any prayer for graduation.

    I also remember that one of our soldiers in my company was a Wicca. She had supposedly some kind of alter in her barracks room. Our company commander touched it, he was one of the few devout Christians in the Brigade, and when the soldier found out she went to the Battalion Sergeant Major to complain.

    The Company Commander was reprimanded for not respecting the soldier’s religion

    So what has changed since 1998 the last year I was in the Army? The Army culture does not change quickly so it is odd to start hearing stories about the Army having fundamentalist Christians trying to push their beliefs on others.

  • Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:45 pm
    "I don`t think that the issue here is prayer being mandatory, Overmann, but rather that the military was worried that this man would not pray with his troops if they requested him to...which leads me to believe that this man is intolerant of religions other than his own."

    For one I didn`t say that prayer in the military was mandatory, only that it was considered such, which is to say that a person cannot without professional consequences refrain from prayer. For two, it`s not accurate to label a man wishing to abstain from prayer as being intolerant of religion for doing so. As far as I know he wasn`t wishing to impose on religious soldiers so much as trying to maintain his own belief system or lack thereof.

    Prayer in the military is still considered mandatory if there are professional consequences from refusing to participate in said prayer.

  • Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:48 pm
    Hey, koalameatpie, why do you assume that I am a christian? I clearly said `religion bashing`.
  • Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 4:59 pm
    "Bull. Galileo, Islamic terrorists, the Crusades- all were/are DIRECTLY motivated by religion. Galileo was attacked because his views disagreed with those of the Bible. Islamic terrorists are following their religion by killing infidels. The Crusades were an effort to spread Christianity to the Middle East."

    I think you have put the nail in your own coffin there. Islam does not condone violence, I am sorry, but it just doesn`t. It is people who take extracts out of context and use them to support their violent ways. The same goes towards christianity, the bible does mention homosexuality as wrong, but that is the old testament. The central reason for new testament was to put the corrupt nature of the world to rest. Jesus said, `love thy neighbour`, not `love thy neighbour, unless he is gay, moslim, or athiest`.

  • Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:06 pm
    LiquidGlass:

    "Oh you mean the country, that was built upon the beliefs of our founding fathers."

    How convenient of you to overlook (putting it mildly; or neglect, putting it accurately) the deistic beliefs held by prominent Fathers such as Jefferson and Franklin, the contempt for organized religion held by Jefferson, Washington, and Adams, and especially the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli (look it up). If the United States were founded on religion and had intended that religion become national policy, it would have been written in the Constitution. And what does the Constitution say regarding religion? The Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause together read:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

  • Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:08 pm
    If you want to take this particular clause literal and therefore necessarily out of the ingrained spirit and respectful context of the whole document, indeed it says freedom of religion. But do you really believe the Founding Fathers had no respect for atheists and desired to deny them rights?

    For the record, I understand Hall was not actively refusing to join prayer, but his commanding officers at least felt he might, which could very well have influence their perception of him as a team leader. This is the "considered mandatory" I`m talking about.

  • Profile photo of EstiloPanama
    EstiloPanama Female 18-29
    2074 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:15 pm
    Liquidglass, I think you`re right about this:

    It`s like the "Guns don`t kill. People kill people" thing...

    Maybe Religion does not kill/harm, but the followers (the people) do.

    Religion is awesome in that it can bring like-minded people together. But like any good thing, it is destroyed by greed (self inflicted wound) and intolerance of others (outside source of conflict).

    Pretend everyone shared one religion...would there still be "religious bashing" between the followers? Probably! Some will call others hypocrites, there will be extremists...all kinds of people of the positive/negative type. So unfortunately, this religion issue can never be solved.

    I also noticed, having my life surrounded by the military of Army, Marine, and Air Force branches, many soldiers/airmen/marines are actually Masons! Which is extremely interesting. There are quite a few atheists as well. But you know...it`s what they feel in their hearts to follow...It`s a difficult subjec

  • Profile photo of EstiloPanama
    EstiloPanama Female 18-29
    2074 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:17 pm
    subject*

    =)

  • Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:20 pm
    odeed, then indeed why is the Old Testament still cited by Christians as sources for morality? And if there are some verses in the OT that are acceptable and some that are not, how is one to know which verses and morals God wishes them to follow? Where are the guidelines in the Bible that prevent people from following a moral coda that has even criminal implications, such as forceful marriage or the perception of God condoning genocide? Here are the options: either 1. All of the OT is bad and no moral codas from it should be followed; 2. All of the OT is good and it is acceptable to follow any given coda from it; or 3. Some unambiguous guidelines be set down detailing which codas to follow and which to abandon. The New Testament offers no such guidelines. So, which is it?

    And, actually, Islam *does* condone violence. Terrorist-fueled or not, Islam and Sharia both condone violence as means of carrying out their beliefs and preserving their beliefs.

  • Profile photo of Kaizer250
    Kaizer250 Male 18-29
    777 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:32 pm
    I find it hilarious that the army is so heavily Christian, when one of the ten commandments (a.k.a. one of the 10 rules that you should NEVER EVER break) is "Thou shalt not kill."
  • Profile photo of oleblue
    oleblue Male 40-49
    3 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:40 pm
    Kaizer250 we used to joke about that all the time. We thought it weird that someone would want to pray then go and kill people.
  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:52 pm
    "It`s like the "Guns don`t kill. People kill people" thing...

    Maybe Religion does not kill/harm, but the followers (the people) do. "

    Guns don`t come with little booklets telling you that you really should think about killing that fellow over there because he follows a different belief.

    There are many examples of religion directly motivating reprehensible acts.

  • Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 5:56 pm
    Overman, the bible can be summised in two rules. Love thy neighbour, and love God with all your mind, heart and soul. Christians tend focus on the new testament. Remember, it is CHRIST-ians, we follow the words of christ. The old testament is not really significant, it is barely discussed outside of the commandments. There are some interesting lessons in it, but oustside of that, it is kept mostly for historical reasons. Still, there are many denominations of the christian faith that still follow the old testament closely. Oh, and how many moslims do you know? and how many condone the violence in the middle east?
  • Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:25 pm
    "Overman, the bible can be summised in two rules."

    No, those are the two rules you *choose* to break it down into. Any other individual can choose to interpret an entirely different two rules, such that interpretation of the Bible is largely ambiguous and directed by the choice to follow an ideal. It`s funny how people also choose to neglect the Old Testament while proclaiming to follow the teachings of Jesus, when Jesus is written in the Bible to have said one should follow the Lord of the Old Testament. One isn`t following Jesus` word to the letter unless one does the same for the Old Testament, but again that just highlights Christians by large pick and choose what to believe and what versus not to believe according to their own personal ideal.

  • Profile photo of angelicamber
    angelicamber Female 18-29
    1572 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:25 pm
    who would force someone to pray...
    I believe people should pray or not as they please
  • Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:29 pm
    How many Muslims do I know? Admittedly none, but I need not know of any to realize there is no sweeping political movement admonishing violence endorsed by the various clerics and Islam-centered states of the Middle East, as well as by Sharia Law. Christianity is at least slightly ahead of Islam in this regard in that Christians defer punishment of criminals to secular government, at least in the mortal world (nothing stops them from threatening their fellow man with an eternal hell).
  • Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:43 pm
    ^odeed,

    I have studied the Bible in depth (I`m a recovering Christian, and have since grown up) and I refute the fact that you write off half of the Book (the Old Testament) as being "not really significant". You either live by it, or not, you can`t pick and choose the bits thats are `nice`.

    I would summarise the bible in one rule, which to me is absolutley abohorrent. The central message of the Bible is this:

    If you are a saved Christian, you are going to go to Heaven and have eternal bliss. If you are anything else: atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, shinto, agnostic, pagan, scientologist, flying spaghetti-monterist, etc etc etc then you are going to burn in hell for all eternity. F*ck you, you had your chance. If you`re not with us, you`re against us.

    This is effectively the same line that was used by the Nazis.

    If this is the Word of God, then God`s a dick.

  • Profile photo of shishkabob
    shishkabob Male 13-17
    180 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:44 pm
    the lawyer is stupid, his arguement was, in the military everyone is equal, so everyone should be treated equal. if that was true, than what are these things called ranks i hear of?


    on a side note, i dont ever talk religion, most ppl who argue about it are very ignorant to what ever religion theyre against.

  • Profile photo of shishkabob
    shishkabob Male 13-17
    180 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:45 pm
    sry about the bad grammar and spelling, im lazy and frankly dont give a fu ck
  • Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:50 pm
    And before you ask, I know many muslims, as I have lived in the Middle East/North Africa for some time, and no-one I know condones or, for that matter, enjoys, the violence in the region.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 6:53 pm
    love it when people say they study the bible in depth and then generalize. But ya I believe the old testament and also believe that others who don`t agree will go to hell, does that make me a bad person? Does it make others of other religions bad? What about Ghandi and mother Thereasa? It seems though that alot of these arguments agaisnt christian are straight from the playbook once again. If your going to say the bible supports something please site.
  • Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:01 pm
    ^^ Penguin, are you seriously asking for someone to cite the passages in the bible which state that only people who are Christains are going to heaven?
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:05 pm
    no, It`s just people have thrown out alot of "the old testament supports this" and havent cited it.

    I really don`t understand the resentment towards Christianity about that point though because all faiths are exclusionary. And by the sound of these arguments on here atheists are too. In fact after reading the posts on here it makes sense why alot of Christians are paranoid that atheists are trying to use the law to force them to stop believing in God.

  • Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:07 pm
    Look, there are many facets to the bible, but in essence it basically tells us, to be nice and love eachother. And I beleive that an athiest can have just as much moral substance as any religious person. But religion gives reason, Athiests argue that we are just merely evolved apes, who act on an instinctual basis. I beleive in evolution, but if we are merely animals, why do we not act in the same manner? Why have all parts of society developed almost identical morals? There is something about humans which makes us different from other animals. I beleive this difference is God.

  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:14 pm
    for those of you that are wondering about why odeed is saying the bible boils down to that is because thats what the bible says it boils down to. When Jesus is asked about the mosiac law and what the 2 most important commandments are he replies "Love the Lord your god with all your heart, mind, and strength. And love your neighbor as yourself."

    Figured I cant ask the atheists to cite scripture and not Christians :-P

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:14 pm
    Penguin, the Old Testament demands the killing of people who don`t listen to priests, witches, homosexuals, fortunetellers, kids who disrespect or hit their parents, adulterers, fornicators, followers of other religions and non-believers, false prophets, women who aren`t virgins when wed, blasphemers, people who work on the Sabbath, and the children of any of the people killed for any of the reasons above. And I will cite sources if you like.
  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:16 pm
    Odeed, do you really need to believe in a mystical fairy to decide that humans are smarter than animals, and thus act differently?
  • Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:16 pm
    Penguin,

    We are in complete agreement. Faith in one religion or the other is, by definition, exclusionary to all others.

  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:27 pm
    So why give the finger to Christianity only then Davymid? Also once again Catbarf it`s one thing to say that the bible says A, B, and C. It`s another thing to generalize. I know some of the passages your talking about, but really can`t respond unless you say it. Yes the bible says some people should be killed for commiting crimes. Yes our society says those things aren`t crimes. That`s why I ask for citations, because I can`t address what you say if you generalize.
  • Profile photo of BikerTeen
    BikerTeen Male 13-17
    2113 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 7:31 pm
    he needs to suck it up end of story
  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:15 pm
    penguinfogel: fair enough. I agree people shouldn`t use certain parts of different religions to justify their actions. But I think it`s possible to blend beliefs for your own personal opinion, no justification.


    Catbarf: I said freedom FROM religion means you shun all kinds. It was the opposite of the first kind. I wasn`t calling that secular.


    Wrong they were motivated by themselves and their demented leaders. they were NOT motivated by religion. But religion was used as the justification for the actions by the leaders.


    You`re right Guns don`t come with booklets but (think crusades) leaders would pass out swords and tell them why they should kill. Dumb ass.

    For you to say a book has no direct intelligence and can`t affect you because it`s inanimate you`re putting a lot of blame on religion which is intangible and inanimate.

  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:16 pm
    Overmann: I don`t see where you`re differing on my point.
    The country was built upon beliefs, they were a basis, doesn`t mean it`s a mandatory national policy. I was speaking to

    I said I thought it was funny that he used `freedom of religion` rather than `freedom of speech` since many (not all) atheists don`t like religion because it usually refers to believing in a higher power.

    NO I belief everyone should be accepting and open minded of other beliefs.

    I never really made a point about Hall. So the whole "mandatory" comments don`t really affect my argument. Thanks though.

    EstiloPanama: lol completely agree, people always find something to fight about. like if we all wore Grey then it would be over the shades of grey, length of clothing, etc etc.

  • Profile photo of TeHrussian
    TeHrussian Male 18-29
    490 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:16 pm
    It`s simple. We only get to hear the guy`s version of events. If that`s what he was told by his platoon sargeant, it`s implicit that he was not getting along with his peers. If he could not establish a rapport with them, he wouldn`t be much of a leader.

    I`m a former Marine Sergeant, who happens to be atheist. Just about everyone I was in charge of was a Christian, either Protestant or Catholic. The best thing to do in such a case is learn about the religions and respect them, and definitely not to push atheism on others.

    On a side note, to be promoted in the armed forces you have to maintain eligibility. One of the requirements of eligibility is a recommendation by the unit. If the unit leader (usually a platoon commander, at least) does not believe that the member does not demonstrate readiness to take on the leadership responsibilities, they may withhold that recommendation. Nothing illegal here.

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:31 pm
    Kill People Who Don`t Listen to Priests

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    Kill Witches

    You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    Kill Homosexuals

    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    Kill Fortunetellers

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    Death for Hitting Dad

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

  • Profile photo of Lauraly
    Lauraly Female 18-29
    2259 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:32 pm
    penguinfogel, if organized religion speaks to a person`s heart then they should follow it. I have no qualms with people who choose to follow an organized religion. I only have a problem when said followers try to force their beliefs on others.
    Also, you misunderstood what I meant when I said that it is possible to take different ideas and teachings from multiple religions and apply them to your own life. I didn`t mean the beliefs, for example who god is, or who was a true prophet. I meant that you can take ideas like the 10 commandments from Christianity and strive for harmony as taught in Taoism and apply both to your life. Also, you could believe in a Christian god while still agreeing with Buddhist teachings. If you do that, then yes it could defeat the point of religion, which is pretty much exactly the point of picking and choosing. Basically I meant that you could take religious teachings and turn them into personal morals and values.
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:33 pm
    Death for Cursing Parents

    1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    Death for Adultery

    If a man commits adultery with another man`s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    Death for Fornication

    A priest`s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Death to Followers of Other Religions

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:34 pm
    Kill Nonbelievers

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    Kill False Prophets

    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)


  • Profile photo of Johnny_Blaze
    Johnny_Blaze Male 18-29
    249 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:34 pm
    Good one Jakesteele.
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:34 pm
    Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:34 pm
    "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
  • Profile photo of tourettes
    tourettes Male 18-29
    957 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:34 pm
    If it really is only about his atheism, that is totally wrong. Competence over religion!

    Then again, if he is a bad leader who can`t get on with his unit and who talks about Atheism to the detriment of the unit, he is unfit to lead.

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:35 pm
    Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

    But if this charge is true (that she wasn`t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father`s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:35 pm
    Kill Followers of Other Religions.

    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:35 pm
    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:36 pm
    Death for Blasphemy

    One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD`s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother`s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD`s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD`s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD`s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:36 pm
    Kill False Prophets

    1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, `Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,` do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:37 pm
    "Wrong they were motivated by themselves and their demented leaders. they were NOT motivated by religion. But religion was used as the justification for the actions by the leaders."

    Galileo was good friends with the Pope. He was attacked because of religion, not because of any leaders involved.

    Crusades? A holy war to retake Jerusalem.

    And Islamic terrorists- if you can`t figure out how a book telling you that killing infidels gets you to heaven might lead to people killing infidels, I don`t know what to tell you.

    "For you to say a book has no direct intelligence and can`t affect you because it`s inanimate you`re putting a lot of blame on religion which is intangible and inanimate."

    Ah, one of the most cliched theistic recitations. I am putting a lot of blame on a book that should have no bearing on modern life. It does affect me because of how seriously it is taken by the rest of the world.

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:40 pm
    I`m getting kind of tired of posting all of this hate speech... can I stop now or do I need to continue to show that the Bible is one of the worst guides imaginable for modern living.

    It`s not a coincidence that the God of the Old Testament sounds exactly like an unenlightened man from that time period - who condones slavery and considers women as property. What, no commandment against slavery? Rape? Oh wait... coveting the neighbors wife is in there, right along with coveting his other possessions.

  • Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:51 pm
    "I don`t see where you`re differing on my point.
    The country was built upon beliefs, they were a basis, doesn`t mean it`s a mandatory national policy. I was speaking to..."

    Yes, but the way you phrased your post you made it sound as if the Founding Fathers pioneered a nation founded on their religious beliefs and that it was these beliefs that influenced society to eventually mandate prayer. I got that impression because I was criticizing the perceived mandate prayer has in the military, a facet of society, when you suggested: "If you`ve got a problem with it too bad."

    "I never really made a point about Hall. So the whole `mandatory` comments don`t really affect my argument. Thanks though."

    That`s okay, they weren`t directed at you anyway. Oh no, feel free carrying on thinking the world is all about you, I dare not disturb that notion.

  • Profile photo of TeHrussian
    TeHrussian Male 18-29
    490 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 8:58 pm
    Funny how this is an argument about religion which is completely irrelevant to what actually happened...
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:50 pm
    Okay Jakesteel those are some of the ones I thought you guys were talking about. The first thing is your explanations of the law were slightly off, just letting you know so you cant tell me I`m not going with what you said. I see no problem with these laws. I would agree that in our modern society they would`nt workm but once again I see nothing wrong. Most of these are hebrew law which FOR THE MOST PART (not saying always) dealt with the Hebrews. As to the laws you posted, most of them govern the JEWISH nation and it`s relationship with God. The point of such laws was to keep out even traces of impurity. Once again I am explaining our beliefs about the laws. If God is true as Christians and Jews believe he is then for someone to leed another astray is to condemn them to hell, which would justify a death sentence. Many of the laws also do double duty. For example if a woman was found not to have her irginity as a cause of rape the man who raped her was responsible to meet the....
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:57 pm
    obligations of a husband without the benefit of receiving a bride. Yes I understand that there was no mention of rape recieving a death sentence, but the law governed purity first. Also a correction on that town one. I suggest you reread what you wrote it says if the rabble has led the town astray, not if a rabble is worshipping another God. As to the relevence of Hebrew law in modern christianity I suggest the writings of the apostle Paul. Like I said the laws governed the Hebrew people, and I really don`t see an issue with them. People knew the law from birth and it was considered very important that they know these laws so that they knew the consiquences. There were seperate laws governing strangers and non Isrealites, although the punishment for leading Jews astray wasn`t much different for them either.
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 9:57 pm
    So shouldn`t we be killing 95% of the people we encounter each day then? Or are you`re saying God has changed his omnipotent mind since then? Cause that`s how I`d like to pick my religion... by the number of sinners I get to kill on a given day.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:01 pm
    Also before anyone tells me I shouldn`t have a problem with Sharia law (not sure thats spelt right, my spelling bites) I see no problem with it as far as it deals with muslims.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:09 pm
    If thats true Jake then thats sad, but if its sarcasm then it is misdirected. I never said God changed his mind. The dgree to which Mosaic law should be followed by non Jews is and always has been a topic of debate within the Christian community. Many early Christians were the victims of Mosaic law since the Jews didn`t believe Christ was the Mesiah therefore they were guilty of leading Jews astray. But like I said if you read the bible the laws were spefic about which ones applied to Jews and it was the Jews job to enforce the law. According to the Bible the Jews are a chosen people set apart for God which is the reason they are subject to the strict purity laws. The stance that most modern Christians take (myself included) is that the issue of purity was solved through Jesus Christ therefore eliminating the need for the law, but we choose to follow the laws governing purity in spirit out of respect for God and the sacrifice he made. Wether or not you agree thats Pauls writings summed
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:28 pm
    So yes according to Jewish law there are many Jews that should be dead. But as to 95% of the people today desrving death..... Honestly I as a Christians have not been given the biblical right to make that judgement or enforce it. The Bible actually says that we all deserve death for wrongdoings because no one is innocent I happen to agree and am thankful for grace.
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:33 pm
    So based on what I see, the Bible (specifically the few dozen scriptures I quoted) clearly and in context shows God to be a misogynistic, genocidal, sadistic, egomaniac.

    How is that worthy of worship again? And let me get this straight... if I do a good enough job pleasing and worshiping him in this life, and get to worship him and sing his praises for eternity? Wouldn`t you think a perfect being would be mature enough to be past needing that level of fawning?

  • Profile photo of DrkAng3LxNat
    DrkAng3LxNat Female 18-29
    1071 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:34 pm
    Religious people are asses. They want everyone to be in on their religion, or go to hell.

    That`s basically it.

  • Profile photo of DrkAng3LxNat
    DrkAng3LxNat Female 18-29
    1071 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:36 pm
    @ Pabasa

    "^ If you`re taking the example of smoking, where scientific evidence clearly proves that secondhand smoking is dangerous, then even if I respect people who smoke (which I do), they`re not respecting MY health by smoking near me. So it`s common courtesy to smoke somewhere else.

    Give and take, you see?"

    Religious people think scientific evidence is a bunch of bullcrap =D

  • Profile photo of kairobert
    kairobert Male 18-29
    1623 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:39 pm
    Calling a person with an IQ of 150 a dumbass for using offensive remarks to express hate for religion confirms ignorance.
    My statements are completely valid.

    And BTW, about the banana argument (your main and possibly only argument). Why did God make it so that every freaking time you try to eat it, it snaps in half and falls on the floor?

  • Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:45 pm
    It seems that the athiests here are being a lot more intolerent than the religious people. The very opposite is what athiests are accusing us of. I am not going to force any beleifs on anyone, which is more than I can say for most of the non-religious of us.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 10:58 pm
    If you believe god is all those things then you really didnt read what I said at all and instead just waited till I responded to post the opinion you had before. Like I said before the laws that you quoted dealt with maintaining spiritual purity which according to the Bible was the only way to get to heaven at the time. I guess from and outside view were heaven never has and never will exhist it would be much harder to understand. I thought if people were going to make those arguements about Christians being these people who are commanded to be hell bent on destruction that I could at least try to set the record straight about what we believe. Honostly I`m just tired of all the Christian bashing (If it was all religions then you wouldn`t single us out) I have never once told someone on here they are going to hell or told them they are stupid for not agreeing. In fact I have tried to correct arguements made on both side out of ignorance and have even defended the atheists.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:03 pm
    I love the fact that IAB isnt moderated for offensive comments, but honestly I respect your beliefs. Please show some respect for mine, not because you agree but because it`s shown for you. Every single debate that I`ve been involved in on here has tried to paint Christians as bloodthirsty and ignorant people who not only do not know their own bible, but know nothing about life. I know you are entitled to post your views, and I wont stop you. Just trying to make an appeal to stop the religous bashing going on. I know theres almost no chance of it working but I know alot of IAB members are tired of it too regardless of their beliefs. I`m honestly not offended by your statements, just tired of the same ones over and over every time.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:07 pm
    wow punctuation was misplaced alot in those posts...... Grammer was horrible also. Sorry
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 7, 2008 at 11:57 pm
    "I guess from and outside view were heaven never has and never will exhist it would be much harder to understand."

    Actually, it`s the exact opposite. When you believe, and you have to figure out a way to force everything to fit in spite of all the internal contradictions, the lack of supporting evidence, and the presence of evidence to the contrary. When you make the transition, from there to understanding that it`s just all made up by men, everything clicks into place. All of the niggling problems that you`d been trying to ignore all of a sudden make perfect sense. All of the justifications and convoluted explanations suddenly aren`t needed and you see through the facade.

    Penguin, you seem like a smart guy - and I`ve know some very smart people who are religious. I know smart, scientists who are devoutly religious - and that apparent contradiction had me confused for years until I realized that the difference is that you start with the conclusion already there.

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 12:00 am
    When you already have the answer to any question you might be faced with, there`s no honest inquiry taking place. If I ask you... "What about ____?" your answer is already there, "God did it", and for whatever evidence you find, you will dismiss and forget the evidence that doesn`t support your god hypothesis, and retain and publish anything that happens to appear to support your world view.
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 12:03 am
    If you want a much better explanation and have a few minutes, I strongly recommend you view this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOo...
  • Profile photo of phinphan
    phinphan Male 30-39
    139 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:27 am
    First we are all atheist at some point in our lives
  • Profile photo of phinphan
    phinphan Male 30-39
    139 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:38 am
    theist meaning to believe in god or gods (A) meaning
    not. A theist believes in gods. Atheists dont say there is no god . They say there is no proof.They do not believe what they are blindly told to believe.
    Atheist is the nice way of saying heathen. That is the way i understood it growing up.Remember we took the word to the heathens.
  • Profile photo of phinphan
    phinphan Male 30-39
    139 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:42 am
    I hate hearing someone was killed in another country
    till I hear they were spreading the word.Stay home and leave them people alone,served you right.
  • Profile photo of phinphan
    phinphan Male 30-39
    139 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:48 am
    Last but not least one of my best statements ::::
    If you argue with an idiot someone across the street
    may not know whom the idiot is!
  • Profile photo of Willowpuff
    Willowpuff Female 18-29
    2220 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 5:42 am
    This man`s intelligent. He KNOWS there`s no god.
  • Profile photo of shishkabob
    shishkabob Male 13-17
    180 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:17 am
    i hate ppl who argue religion, everyone just keeps shoving theyre points down each others throats and it doesnt go anywhere cuz at the end of the day no one has changed their views. so why even argue religion, belive what you want to believe.
  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:20 am
    Catbarf: how hard is it for you to understand People make the descions to act and use religion as a justification.

    I`ll put it this way during the Crusades you seem to be so fond of. People didn`t just kneel over being killed by religion. In fact swords, arrows, and other instruments killed them.

    Religion is Not a book. It`s a set of ideals shared by a lot of people. That has a `manual` to go along with it. Dumb ass.


    jakesteele: you`re just copy/pasting off of a website with no context what so ever.

  • Profile photo of Liquidglass
    Liquidglass Male 18-29
    1111 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:22 am
    overmann: fair enough, my fault on the way I worded my post.

    Lol well it wasn`t directed at anyone specifically and related slightly to one of my comments. Don`t worry I know the world isn`t all about me, there`s at least room for one or two more people.


    Kairobert: ooooh lol I`m scared of your supposed IQ, if it was that high your "offensive remarks" as you put it should be much more witty.
    Actually expressing hate for any religion as opposed to simple distaste for one displays something far beyond ignorance and close mindedness.

    Let me guess you took an online test and it told you, you had an IQ of 150 how cute. And seeing your age range of 13-17 it`s probably done on that scale as well. But if throwing around an irrelevant number that`s probably false makes you feel better than go right ahead.

    Willowpuff: No you can only believe there is no God. You can`t know. Either way you look at it. Both sides have faith. Faith that there is a God or that there isn`

  • Profile photo of Tygur
    Tygur Male 18-29
    8 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:41 am
    If an atheist is told to pray and refuses, thats his right. He isn`t being intolerant, hes having the beliefs of others forced onto him. Its like if a Christian was asked to perform a Satanic ceremony and refused. Same deal.
  • Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 10:26 am
    "Catbarf: how hard is it for you to understand People make the descions to act and use religion as a justification.

    I`ll put it this way during the Crusades you seem to be so fond of. People didn`t just kneel over being killed by religion. In fact swords, arrows, and other instruments killed them. "

    Swords, arrows, and other instruments killed them. Not the religion they were following.

    Just like how guns kill people. Not the people using them.

  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 10:42 am
    *sigh*

    Really both of you should go and read a history book about the Crusades if you really want to understand it. It was far more complex then a religous war. If you understood that then you`ld point to the 100 years war instead, but once again it`s far more complex then just protestants and catholics. Many of the wars centered around land control then they did about religion. The sad thing is alot of these people did use religion to justify or gain support for their causes, some even turned on that same religion later. This was a time when the bible which you guys are refering to as a manual for these people was a rare sight. In fact many of these people that rallied under religion had no clue what their religion said about alot of things. All it took for one of these causes to start was a religous man somewhere to say God supported the cause. So when you say these people used the bible as a manual for war your really showing you don`t understand the history.

  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 10:47 am
    Also Tyger if an Atheist refuses to pray I fully support his ability to do so. However if his superiors feel that his attitude towards prayer may effect his ability to lead his troops then I support them in thei decission. Often times today we think we should be able to excersize our rights without dealing with the results. I`m not saying prayer should be a requirement for leadership, but based on responses from military personel and from the article itself it sounds like this went beyond the matter of his religous beliefs.
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 11:10 am
    So Penguin... What if his superiors want him to pray to Zeus and he says no? Do you still think he would be wrong to object and refuse to play make-believe? You do realize that he is constitutionally protected from having to participate in fake-god worship, right?
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 11:35 am
    I said I support his right to not pray regardless of who its too. If his superiors thought he wasnt fit for leadership because he wasnt a witch I would still support their decision. I never said I wouldn`t question the validity of their decision, but if it made him an unfit leader then I would still support them. And there you go with the venom again fake God worship? That really wasn`t necesary and was meant to be offensive.
  • Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 12:02 pm
    I`d like to think an atheist would be smarter than to join the military in the first place. But obviously there are a lot of dumb atheists.
  • Profile photo of Cheese84o6
    Cheese84o6 Male 13-17
    394 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:30 pm
    It says it all when the line "Atheists and other non-Christians" appeared, he wasn`t actually trying to hold a religious meeting, he was rebelling against his unit where Christianity held the majority. He should be demoted for his lack of team-work and selfishness.
  • Profile photo of Cheese84o6
    Cheese84o6 Male 13-17
    394 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:32 pm
    turkey, ham is too salty
  • Profile photo of Cheese84o6
    Cheese84o6 Male 13-17
    394 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:38 pm
    I hate to be one of those Christians but there are very few real Christians in the world. The majority will profess their love for God and cheat on their wife at the same time
  • Profile photo of Cheese84o6
    Cheese84o6 Male 13-17
    394 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:43 pm
    I love how everyone raves how open minded they are and how the majority are "oppressed Christians". Well I hate to say it, but these threads are pretty much a line of people taking a crap on Christians and the bible.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 1:55 pm
    ham may be a bit salty, but it has a better flavor then turkey. personaly I go for a nice thick cut of corned beef. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 5:09 pm
    So you are saying you support religious descrimination in the workplace? Don`t try to say you`re not, becasue that`s exactly what that means when you said "If his superiors thought he wasnt fit for leadership because he wasnt a witch I would still support their decision". And don`t try to say that being in the Army isn`t a job, and a government job at that.
  • Profile photo of Lazorfish
    Lazorfish Male 13-17
    738 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 7:16 pm
    What would they need to talk about anyway? Still no God? What an update.
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 8:59 pm
    I see no problem with discrimination of any kind within reason. That`s not to say I`d support someone not hiring another person because they`re black or white. Maybe some background will help. I come from a state where it is considered racial discrimination to not hire somone because they can`t speak english as long as it doesnt interfere with thei ability to preform their dutys. It is considered acceptable to not hire somone for not speaking another crew members native language if it will effect their ability to communicate with their co-workers. I feel that it is perfectly within reason to discriminate when putting together a team that needs to function as a unit if doing otherwise might have a negative effect on the units ability to function. So like I said within reason I feel it`s fine. Would you support a public school should knowingly hire a science teacher who not only believes there is not overwhelming support for evolution, but might let his opinion interfere with teaching?
  • Profile photo of penguinfogel
    penguinfogel Male 18-29
    142 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:01 pm
    Now that I`ve responded I`d like to ask you if you really desire to know my opinions, or are trying to word your questions purposfully in order to paint me in a bad light? That`s to say are you wording your questions as if I`m a bigot on purpose?
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:48 pm
    I guess I was trying to rephrase your posts in a way that emphasized the parts that I consisdered to be wrong, or biggoted if you`d prefer. I assumed that if I reframed your words, that you`d have to back off and admit that it wasn`t a defensible viewpoint. Guess I was wrong.

    I`m more than a little sensitive about the fact that atheism seems to be the only belief system that is still deemed fair game for outright persecution. It`s absolutely clear that in the United States, we`re at the point where it`s possible (and likely) will soon have either an African American, or a female president - both minority groups that have made tremendous, hard-fought strides over the past several decades. I fear it will be a long time before an openly atheist canditate would even have a remote chance - and that`s just wrong. I`m sure you`re familiar with George H. W. Bush`s qoute about atheists. Replace the word atheist with African American and you`ll see exactly how biggoted it is.

  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:49 pm
    No, I don`t know that African Americans should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is a caucasian nation.
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 8, 2008 at 9:50 pm
    "No, I don`t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." George H. W. Bush - running for president of the United States of America.
  • Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 9, 2008 at 12:24 am
    What?
  • Profile photo of jakesteele
    jakesteele Male 30-39
    57 posts
    March 9, 2008 at 12:26 am
    Read my last post on the previous page.
  • Profile photo of odeed
    odeed Male 18-29
    453 posts
    March 9, 2008 at 3:52 am
    I read it, but I think we are getting a little off topic here, oh wait we alreday are off topic. Oh well, carry on.
  • Profile photo of RVIsh
    RVIsh Male 18-29
    251 posts
    October 15, 2010 at 11:53 pm
    Funfact: The people charged with upholding the constitution aren`t privileged under the constitution. You think soldiers can say the current president is a piece of poo when that same guy is their commander in chief? In the military, if you`re different, you`re wrong. Sure, you can complain to your congresswo/man and maybe get something out of it, but for the most part you`re just going to get hell from your superiors and peers.
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