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cos its always been happening: its not newsi know none of my friends have been in the news just for being muslims..
i know i havnt been in the saudi news for living a moderate atheist life, and neither have any of my christian friends
i dunno if i will keep following this topic so if i dont:
just to say i do agree with you that islam/religion is fundamentally evil but that muslims/etc are not fundamentally evil
Then return to your spot in front of your television where you belong and do bother waiting a few years before pretending to grow up. The intervening silence will be assuredly enjoyed.
but i have one more thing to say:........ADULT BRACES
(not that im defend religion or anything)
Actually, davymid, my point is that there are no such people as Islamic moderates, at least none born and bred in the Middle East. What people don`t realize is that Islamic extremism is not a matter of a few people hijacking Islam, it`s about those individuals who are following the letter of their religion as their holy book says they should. If there were such people as Islamic moderates, you`d hear their admonitions and outcries over such "hijackers" giving their religion a bad name. Ask yourself how often you hear of those in the Middle East doing such.
You speak of such abuses happening on "regular days", davymid, and that is *exactly* what I`m talking about.
not to say that islam isnt to blamebut it is equally as guilty as all abrihamic religions
"This wasn`t extremism, this was just a regular day in an religious-ruled less economically developed country."
(not that it was a regular day... i mean it did get on the saudi news and all)
Have to agree though... I guess Overmann`s point is that while moderate muslims do not condone extremism, Islam is the fertile soil in which fundamental extremism can grow. I mean, here in Britain we had a teacher in Sudan who had mass calls for her brutal execution by sword, for naming a f*cking teddy bear Mohammed. I mean, come on, it`s 2007... WTF is wrong with this picture?
Did you guys know that a few years ago there was a fire in a school in Saudi Arabia, the police forced some of the girls back into the burning building because they were not wearing appropriate all-covering clothing while trying to flee from the fire. 15 children were burned to death that day. This wasn`t extremism, this was just a regular day in an islamic country. Full story from the BBC here
Actually, it *is* because of the religion:
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)
You want to ardently defend religion (especially Islam) but you haven`t offered up any benefits of religion.
"It`s not religions I am againstit`s extreme fundamentalism that troubles me."
Once more, the so-called fundamentalists are only those Muslims actively following the word of their religion. You don`t hear of any Islamic rights groups denouncing the harsh punishments given to innocent people because there aren`t any. While very few people may speak out in the Arab world, their voices are deafened by the blanket of silence maintained by the majority who feel such punishments and behaviors are appropriate. Does that make Islam a peaceful religion?
love how the video was done and it sure made me think - but whatever happens there are still gonna be some racist people out there.
Im not going to argue with this. religion doesn`t teach this, but yeh, it causes it. few people read the whole quran by meaning, let alone 7 massive volumes, and a few hundred after that, so they believe what they want to. Forget 911, i can understand that peoples minds have been poisoned to `kill everyone else`, but cases such as suicide bombers in mosques totally baffle me. I know some people who know nothing about their religion, and dont really care, but then ther`re those who know nothing about their religion, but condemn everyone else for being non- muslim, though islam says to mind your own business and be nice to people of other religions.
but it is my opinion that there is no "correct" interpretation
i put the link up also to show that people tend to assume the "correct" interpretation of the bible to be the "good" one, and the "correct" interpretation on the koran to be the "bad" one.
imo the "best" interpretation of either book is such a severe twist on its content that there is no point even following the book in the first place
2." The rampant rape of women over there is the by-product of centuries of male-dominated society"
exactly.im saying that women couldnt leave the house because it was a male dominated society 1400 years ago,and still is. and if i remember correctly there was a similas case of dresses-to-your-toes-foreheads- covered situation in the western world only 200 years before, but this is obviously slightly better now -
"Open politics up to women and get some damn civil liberty reforms in motion"in an ideal world yes, but in a male dominated society, who`
"just because al-qaeda are the extremists of the religion does not imply that every muslim lives or thinks that way"
Indeed, but you`re missing the point that every Muslim is a potential "extremist" and that the extremists actually represent how Islam was meant to be interpreted. Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali`s book Infidel and come back to the discussion.
"Since God`s standards are so much higher than man`s, men who do not follow the teachings of scripture view God`s words as `foolish`."
If men thought religious standards were foolish because they`re absurd and the product of sick minds, how would this compare to the reason you propose men think religious standards are foolish? There`s no difference. It`s like this: one guy, A, believes the earth revolves around the sun while another man, B, believes the sun revolves around the earth. Man B argues he can *see* that the sun revolves around the earth and therefore his argument must be correct. Man A asks the question, "What would it look like were I correct?"
For more, I would check out "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith", both written by Lee Strobel, a former athiest journalist who explored the issue in a journalistic way.
On the Evil of Biblical Law: The NLT translation says it this way: "gave them over to worthless decrees and regulations that would not lead to life. 26 I let them pollute themselves[a] with the very gifts I had given them, and I allowed them to give their firstborn children as offerings to their gods—so I might devastate them and remind them that I alone am the Lord."
On Slavery and Subjigation of Women:Slavery was not considered wrong when these books were written. Although God didn`t condone slavery, he did allow it.
Here`s my answers to that weblink that relaxenjoy put up:
On Punishing Immorality:God`s view of Immorality is different from man`s. Since God`s standards are so much higher than man`s, men who do not follow the teachings of scripture view God`s words as "foolish".
Remember that the books of Exodus-Deuteronomy are very ancient Jewish law, not Christian teachings. Christ set us free from these laws. When asked what the most important commandments were, Jesus replied "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourselves. For this sums up the laws and the prophets."
Christ`s teaching is this: Love God with everything you are, and treat others like you want to be treated (this is where the Golden Rule comes from).
Since it isn`t spelled with Latin characters anyway, I`d imagine it`s just a matter of aesthetics.
All religions, with the exception of Buddhism, are dangerous, but especially yours. Any system that bids you voluntarily or compulsorily subject yourself to artificial morals or unverifiable phenomenon is deleterious to the mind`s health and can motivate people to do things they otherwise would not have, such as flying a plane into a building or committing suicide for the promise of reward or mutilating one`s children or unjustly condemning (even killing) people on the basis of triviality or... and the list just goes on and on. Equality simply isn`t possible with religion roaming rampant. It is sick, unmerited, unjust, unreasonable, compulsory, selfish, too often fatal and without any redeeming qualities whatsoever.
You`re making an erroneous distinction between culture and religion. More often than not, culture is *derived* from religion. Holidays (especially Christmas), shops closing on Sundays, the preservation of the arts by the Church in the old days, genital mutilation... need I say more? Arab culture is similarly derived (or at least strongly influenced) by their radical religion, especially when it comes to dress. Although the burqa is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran, Islamist society interpreted to the extreme nonetheless the notion of hijab.
Going back to genital mutilation, what are your views on this? What is written on it in the Quran?
Punishment for the offender or the victim? You didn`t specify. I seem to recall cases in which the rape victim is also punished for committing adultery.
"and a woman couldnt leave the house without being in danger of being raped, so it seemed sensible to cover them up, so they wouldnt find them attractive."
Oh no, we are *not* going to carry on with this `blaming the victim` bullsh*t. There are admittedly certain conditions a woman can place herself in that would raise the probability of her being raped, but no average woman walking out on the street is responsible for her rape by virtue of what she wears. Want to know how to prevent rape in Arab nations? Open politics up to women and get some damn civil liberty reforms in motion. The rampant rape of women over there is the by-product of centuries of male-dominated society, not scant clothing. Don`t be naive.
Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Jesus speaking)
this is the best one (currently): so many people talk about Islam referring to passages like this, gets frustrating sometimes :roll:
Agnosticism, while technically the most correct `belief` is still bullpoo.
Its true that there MIGHT be a small teapot orbiting Jupiter, but anyone that actually considers it is still an arsehole
Muppets. Sheeple. And more than anything, SELFISH.
I honestly have no idea.
Okay, so washing sweat off feet is dirtier than washing $h!t off hands? I see...I see...
Muslims: ROCK ON! The Muslims I know are more peaceful and loving people than of any other religion (or lack thereof).
I`m sick and tired of people judging one billion Muslims by the actions of a few. For all you atheists and agnostics who claim to be more "logical," want to tell me how that math works out???
Wasn`t it Communism not so long ago?
But I don`t care about religion either way.
Christianity can always play the trump card when it comes to faith. That’s easy. OUR RELIGION says it’s so, even if you’re not a member of OUR FAITH, then by decree (cause it says so in the bible/qu’ran, take your pick), morality was granted by God. Let me address some of the morality debate simply by replacing the word JESUS with the word SANTA CLAUS, and see how far we go…
RELIGION is the root of all evil.
notice how the US is 24th on the first link, and saudi arabia is way down at 61st, just before qatar, another muslim country.
and how, in the second link they come 65th (out of 65) for rapes, and past the half point for almost everything else. (except unpaid diplomatic parking fines, 1st, lol)this shows that because of these harsh punishments, few people commit crime (except for those with parking fines)you could quite literally walk out of you jewellery
`If you kill one man, it is as if you killed all people.`
i cant remember exactly where it is, but it is there.
also, what you say about martyrs going to heaven is true, but terrorists are not martyrs, they are killers, you are not allowed to kill the innocent,even if they are non muslins. in one hadith the prophet prohibited (in a war) any of his men going to the bit with the women and children. and the conditions of jihad are that you only respond to what someone else started.
as for your other excerpts, the christian and jewish gods punish, are angry etc, so why focus on only muslims
`Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live` exodus 22:18
`Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,` Jeremiah 50:-22
`You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you.`Deuteronomy
A word to Islamofascists
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah`s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God`s entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
Wrong, mangamonkey. "I don`t know" is a necessary condition for agnosticism, but not sufficient of itself. An atheist is just as capable of assuming there is no God but in actuality not knowing, either. An agnostic, then, is one who believes there are elements of existence that are by nature unanswerable and so does not offer one.
I respect the sentiments and appreciate the logic behind agnosticism, but by remaining neutral they make no effort to *seek* truth. My mixture of atheism and science puts me in the best possible position to discover truth in things.
davymid, perhaps you can help me with a bit of trouble I`ve been having of late regarding religion and morals.
First, morality does not come from religion. We know that. We also know that morality does not come from *faith* - those who do not believe in God still have morality. However, both of these do not preclude a faith-head from claiming God gave man morality in the beginning, which is to say that all people, by default, have morals. When attempting to note the case of criminals, a faith-head can claim experiences on Earth transformed or undid his God-given morality. How, then, can one of rational mind make it clear that this is not the case?
I do not believe in the great unreachable, unknowable Sky-Fairy. Whether you call him Allah, God, Jesus, Yahweh or bloody Apollo. I believe the Bible, the Koran, and all other religious texts are works of fiction written by men thousands of years ago. I believe woman, homosexuals, and people of all ethnic groups should have equal rights, despite what it says in these books. I believe the world was created 4.6 billion years ago from natural processes and that all life on earth can be explained by evolution and natural selection.
I AM AN ATHEIST!
I have a completely well-developed sense of morals thank you very much, and always try to do the right thing. These morals do not come from the Bible, the Koran or anywhere else, I just know that killing and stealing is wrong and helping others less fortunate is right.
And I wouldn’t wash my feet in a public toilet. That’s not being religious, that’s just gross.
Agnostic is not a belief its an "i dont know"
But when people are recaiving death threats for drawing a bad cartoon, or a 47 year old woman is on trial for naming a teddybear, or any number of human rights violations are being carried out "in the name of allah", thats when it gets nasty
I`m an aetheist but i accept that people believe various things, but when a belief is used as an excuse to murder and persecute, thats not a religious belief thats an excuse to be a bad person
It`s not muslims we hate, its those miserable sods who use the term religious predjudice to further their own predjudice
Just look at Iran.
Any belief (religious or not) that dictates your life is wrong.
Islam is the most dangerous religion out there given its message and reach. It should come as no surprise to you how much detestation there exists for that in which you believe.
I respect your religion, but it`s a natural defence mechanisms that people think twice before befriending a muslim
Only other thing I can say is...
it`s extreme fundamentalism that troubles me.
Furthermore, Islam is almost Identical to Christianity and Judaism, and has borrowed many practices from both Juddaism and Christianity. Such as the prohibition of eating pork, this came from Judaism, and the tradition of wearing the Hijab was borrowed from the Christian nuns who would wear something similar. Islam also tells the same stories and reveres the same prophets as both the Jews and Christians do. From Adam and eve, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Noah, etc. In fact the ironic thing is that while most blame Islam for being oppressive to women, when really if you look at the Islamic Version of the story