12 Inch Miracle Tube Could Halve Heating Bills

Submitted by: Snoogans 10 years ago in Science
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=481996&in_page_id=1965

I was always taught you can never create more energy than you put in.
There are 96 comments:
Male 382
Genius.
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Male 238
why was i thinking of something nasty>?
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Female 250
No offense young people. You are our future. I would like to see what a phd had to say on the topic.
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Male 1,386
its so obvious... Magic! dang wizards...
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Female 326
"Well I give up then. Clearly no one reads my posts."

Because they`re too effing long! If you wanna be like a five-year-old and fight with Mongoose, e-mail him.

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Male 244
Lies. Energy can be created! ... if you don`t count mass energy as energy...

A simple chemical reaction such as Hydrogen and Oxygen coming together actually "destroys" some of the mass to "create" energy (for the binding of the molecule)... ie H20 weighs less than 2H plus 1O.

...

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Male 28
Yes the surrounding air does have that much energy.

And yes its pretty obvious that we can`t know for sure without primary data, but that`s no reason not to give my very plausible argument as to how it might be done.

Just because I called you a fool and you didnt use a similar derogatory word doesn`t mean that I was the first one to throw blatant insults.

You implied that I was stupid by saying my argument was flawed- not because it was incorrect but because you didn`t understand many of the words.

Whilst im sure that the secret chemical is a catalyst, I don`t know enoromous amounts about chemistry, so I won`t try and poke my nose into your debate with dudeman. but it can be said that his argument is written a lot more clearly and a LOT more concisely- a sign of intelligence. Theres a 1000 character limit you know;)

It is fun though :)

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Male 300
If mrMongoose`s theory were correct, then to get twice the energy out than what was put in, the value of C would have to be equal to the values of A+B. Does the surrounding air have that much energy? Would the scientists have checked this in their experiments? Look, I`ve admitted that I was wrong in places. And I`m the only one who hasn`t thrown blatant insults around. So therefore I`m the one who`s "flaming" people.

The only way anyone could figure this out is if they had the results from the experiments with the device. If a dumb guy like me can figure that out, then why can`t you mrMongoose?

This is fun, isn`t it? :)

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Male 300
Well I give up then. Clearly no one reads my posts. Especially dudeman1st. Electrolysis of water is dull and slow, so other things are often used to the same effect. Sulphuric acid, for example.

Now here`s where dudeman1st falls into the same hole as mrMongoose. Now they both may be very intelligent people, but at first they don`t seem to be. Dudeman1st here seems to think that that bit of potassium carbonate, which at no point would get into the water tank, would be filling up your bath. Hmm...alkaline bath. Degree or no degree, the rest of his post agrees with me. Hydrogen and oxygen, whoopee. And he calls me dumb. Perhaps he should keep his mouth zipped for a bit next time eh?

mrMongoose thinks I`m dumb because apparently I don`t know what endothermic and entropy mean. And then he goes off on a big explanation which a team of scientists couldn`t work out but he could. Because he`s super smart. Well done mrMongoose.

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Male 393
^^^ ha ha ha , that`s nice. (I like pie too.)
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Male 35
i like pie. i mean why do we have to talk about science mumbo jumbo. im in 7th grade. i hsve no idea what thermolaw thing is.(dont call me retarded though im gifted)i like pie
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Male 151
Hahahaha! The SEEEECRET CATALYST! SHHHHHH!
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Male 393
^^^^^ YAAAAAAAWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN. Christ, dont ever let me get caught sitting next to you in the pub.
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Male 28
Sorry if the oven fridge example was too concise for you. I assumed theres a 1000 character limit limit because thats how long the owners of i-am bored want comments to be.

Whilst you flamed me for using words you don`t understand and didn`t like my phrasing (for which I apologise profusely), I fail to see you pointing out any genuine mistakes in my argument. Allow me to clarify.

Water + electricity (amount A) + heat(amount B)= hydrogen + oxygen

Heat in means surrounding temperature drops.

Temperature difference between cooled water and surrounding air causes heat transfer (amount C) until water returns to room temperature.

Under high pressure, bubbles of hydrogen and oxygen become water again.

Hydrogen + oxygen = water + heats A,B,C

So, energy in from internal energy of water and from electricity= A+B

Energy out= A+B+C

COP= (A+B+C)/(A+B)>1

Sorry for the pseudo chemical equations.

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Male 300
(1000 chars my arse)...intimidated? Right. I see how that works. And now that you`ve proven your mastery at psychology, maybe this defence proves that I`m insecure and won`t let things go. Maybe I`ll grow up to beat my wife because she disagrees with me once. Ah, there`s the piss taking again. Notice how it merely serves to irritate you a little and your retorts would likely be less thought through, and would be full of holes for me to pick at. It`s petty argumentation, but anyone with a 20% attendance record at any high school playground knows that it works effectively.

Yes, I`ve blabbed on a bit too long and no one likes that, and probably made a load of people begin to dislike me. Well, it beats shouting photoshopped anyway.

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Male 300
I`d also like to point out that mrMongoose interpreted what I said wrongly also. He thought I was banging on about efficiency. Look at my post, and you`ll see that it isn`t true. He was the first to actually use a nice little name for me, "fool", even if indirectly.

But this all links back to my original point. No one here knows the way it works, if it really does, so any explanation is going to be wrong. And all I did was pick holes in one explanation in a slightly harsh way, and then I`m the bad guy. Ah well.

I also seemed to class myself as a smart guy with the £0.01 thing, so clearly I was trying look like I was intelligent. Right...perhaps I meant "English joke!" instead. Well, I can see where these statements come from, so I`m sorry if I angered you. You`re right though, mrMongoose probably is smarter than me, but even smart people make mistakes. So maybe I pointed one out, and added in a little something to reduce his credibility, because I`m intimid

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Male 300
"I have a feeling Andyl feels intimidated by people smarter than him. He obviously doesn`t understand the fridge/oven statement."

This statement was said by mr. ttsec because he thought I was a 13 year old who seems too big for my boots and want to stand with the big boy crowd.

The oven statement was not phrased in a way that would make mrMongoose seem super clever. Besides, from what I can tell he seems to think that it works by turning water into hydrogen and oxygen and then reacting these again to get water. No overall energy gain. If he`s just stating that then fair enough, I understand that, and I also know that I don`t know how this device works and no one else here does.

I do understand that I`m being very harsh, but that`s just how I play it. Of course, I look like the bad guy and then pull in wannabe psychologists diagnosing me with narcissism or thinking me as some guy acting like an arsehole because I`m anonymous. Fair enough, let them have their fun.

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Male 1,114
Two possibilities:
1) The extra heat is taken somewhere else they are not aware of.
2) Our present tubes somehow suppress the actual amount of heat generated.

You`re missing the third one...

It`s fake...

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Male 2
To all the naysayers out there: Just because you don`t understand something, doesn`t mean you should knock it. Gravity, Double Slit Experiment, Magnetics, etc...
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Female 20
^^Lol LBlues, I was just craving subway.
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Male 713
No, a 12 inch miracle is a trip to subway
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Male 522
I call BullShixor! Who wants to make a bet? It does not put out more energy than went in.
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Female 1,492
the fact that it works kicks ass...the fact that they don`t know how it it works....is awesome!!!
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Male 126
"`....When you plug in your hairdryer, you aren`t getting hot air from nothing--`

Yes i do, i`ve rigged the meter."

Then the laws of thermodynamics aren`t the laws you should be worried about. :)

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Male 91
I bet that it takes a lot of energy to get the solution ready, just like how it takes a lot of energy to mine the lithium for an elecric car battery. Or realy on some non renewable sourse.
think about a battery, you put in no energy, and a omfg of a lot comes out. Forget that it only lasts a year... this thing will probably stop produceing heat very quickly, and then you would have waisted a whole lot of money.

Sorry for any gramer and/or spelling mistakes.

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Male 429
I don`t see why anyone is arguing about it, is it that hard to agree that it is bull****?
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Male 280
*sigh*... nobody`s gonna read this but..

DO SOME GODDAMNED RESEARCH. Five seconds on BBC and Google shows that this story only exists on two sister sites. In fact if you search BBC news for "Ecowatts" nothing shows up. British news not reporting this? It`s poo.

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Male 449
A somewhat misleading title
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Male 902
[quote]On 9/24/2007 2:07:40 PM sprink99 wrote: kimonoThief"....When you plug in your hairdryer, you aren`t getting hot air from nothing--" Yes i do, i`ve rigged the meter.[/quote]

You`ve won this game.

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Male 954
Anybody else have a rant about science that they want to get out?
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Female 77
sorry.
no.
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Male 1,354
I have a degree in chemistry and andyl, you are dumb. Potassium Carbonate dissolved in water gives off heat, there is no reaction. So, the "catalyst" probably will work (for like .1 degree of difference) if you want to bathe in an alkyline solution which will probably melt your skin off. There are no halogens present in potash; however, all tap water is chlorinated and most tap-water contains fluoride (just like toothpaste). All electrolysed water turns into hydrogen and oxygen. That`s why it is called electro(nic) lysis. H20 lysed turns into, guess what, hydrogen and oxygen. This poo is retarded, so quit arguing like you either know what you are talking about or like this stupid invention even has a chance of working.
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Male 1,231
One of the original comments on the article was:
`It blatently says that the catalyst uses the HYDROGEN in the water to produce more energy. Reminder that Hydrogen is an element in rocket fuel. If you can find a catalyst to release the potential energy from the hydrogen in the water, which is obviously the copper based secret, then its very understandable that you can make more energy than is put in electrically`.
I blame the daily mail`s bad wording and over exaggeration for the mis-understandings of the products potential.
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Male 1,289
damn...why didnt i think of this?
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Male 666
I have a feeling Andyl feels intimidated by people smarter than him. He obviously doesn`t understand the fridge/oven statement.
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Male 28
Well, Andy, If you don`t understand what I`m saying, perhaps you`re the fool not me.
I am not a chemist, but anyone who has more than a 20% attendance record at a high school (or anyone who ever got bored and made a bomb with a battery and a balloon) knows that electricity causes water to decompose to hydrogen and oxygen, and when it explodes it makes heat, just as when it was produced it took in heat.

While I make no claim to be a chemist, I do however have a fairly comprehensive knowledge of thermodynamics, and if you would care to look up the idea of a coefficient of performance of a heat pump, you will find (though no doubt not understand) that they can have a COP in excess of 100% (what you seem to be mistaking for efficiency).

I see no need to flame me just because you don`t understand. I`m sure several people don`t, but I just provided some ideas to share with those who might.

I know nothing about chrome catalysts, so I won`t flame you for your "pseudoscience"

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Female 326
Am I the only one that got the title...O_o? I feel so sinful now.
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Male 2,958
technically it`s £0.099
But that`s just my 0.22 pesos
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Male 300
"And what happens when the Potash runs out hmm? Will it keep going nicely?"

After reading this I thought I`d explain a little. When the potassium carbonate solution is electrolysed, you get hydrogen and oxygen given off? Why? Essentially in easy peasy terms, the potassium ions are more reactive that the hydrogen ions present, so you get hydrogen at the cathode. With no halogens, oxygen ions go to the anode to form oxygen. Notice how the potassium carbonate isn`t being used up at this point really, so no problems there.

That`s the extent of my knowledge. And no guarantees on that being right either. It`s just my £0.01. <--- (smart guy joke!)

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Male 300
mrMongoose, you have no idea what you`re on about do you? I don`t think anyone here would trust some internet pseudoscientist saying "blah dee blah dee blah, therefore fridges are ovens."

I`m sure there`ll be an incredibly complex way of explaining it, which does not involve a few randomers on the internet stringing scientific words together (endothermic! entropy! I`m clever!) in under 1000 characters each.

I personally (like everyone here, yes you too) have no clue what`s going on, so Kudos to the scientists that figure it out. But remember people, the secret catalyst (based on chrome!) provides no energy. I`m surprised no one has blamed the potassium carbonate solution for this yet. This solution I suppose, yes, would decompose to oxygen and hydrogen, but clearly mrMongoose chanced upon this, for he showed no reasoning behind it all. Why? So non-chemists wouldn`t follow and just accept it. Pff.

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Male 194
thats the start of perpetual energy right there
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Female 920
Go for it.
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Male 4,290
I think he knows that mate. I get the feeling he was being sarcastic.
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Male 296
videot
Male, 30-39, Europe
8 Posts Monday, September 24, 2007 5:20:43 PM
Yesterday I lighted a match and dropped it in a forest. It generated THOUSANDS of times the energy I put in. Now, to make millions selling matchboxes!

_______________________________________________

no, actually. The heat that is, as you say, created is fueled by more and more trees. In other words, you don`t create energy that way.

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Male 4,290
sprink99: "Of course this is possible ... you`ll be putting kettles or something on here."

Please, please, please tell me that comment was a joke.

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Male 4
Please Note the existence of a "secret ingredient," which I`m going to bet costs a good amount of energy to produce anyways, so the energy saved is nil. Or it`s a scam.
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Male 21
Yesterday I lighted a match and dropped it in a forest. It generated THOUSANDS of times the energy I put in. Now, to make millions selling matchboxes!
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Male 3,014
I`m very "sceptical" (sic) about the truthiness of this article.
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Male 317
lol, as said by others. it does not create any energy at all. it just use electricity to release energy from the liquid. So you`ll need to refuel your gadget.
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Male 666
I generate much more energy than I put in every time I drive. The electrical energy from the engine spark plug is nothing compared to the energy from the fuel combustion. My car must defy laws of physics. You guys need to take some science classes, seriously.
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Female 1,426
It`s probably the "secret catalyst" that creates the extra heat.
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Male 87
Ooh I wonder if they`ve tried linking lots of them in series?
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Male 87
This has happened before and it will happen again. I suspect they`ve made some trivial error and if they have any sense they will never mention it again.

And what happens when the Potash runs out hmm? Will it keep going nicely?

If they want to be taken seriously, they should patent it and then tell everybody EXACTLY what the catalyst is and how it`s meant to work.

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Male 1,497
"btw to the title
thats what she said
oooh burn"

Lol

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Female 67
I saw this on Stargate SG-1. If it works, they`re totally wreaking havoc in other parallel universes. :)
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Male 393
kimonoThief"....When you plug in your hairdryer, you aren`t getting hot air from nothing--"

Yes i do, i`ve rigged the meter.

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Male 65
I`d like to order fifteen units please.
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Female 157
That kind of scares me that they don`t know how it works. What if it has bad effects we don`t know of? I don`t know if I believe that it puts out twice as much energy, but I don`t belive that we`re right about every law in nature either.
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Male 126
"Of course this is possible. All you lunatics banging on about constant energy levels etc don`t know what on earth you are talking about."

You just don`t get it. They`re saying that you can`t GET more energy than you put in. When you plug in your hairdryer, you aren`t getting hot air from nothing--it comes from the electricity generated by the power plant, which uses coal, nuclear, hydro power, etc.

And regarding the device, just because the heat energy surpasses the electrical energy doesn`t mean it`s violating any laws of thermodynamics. The potential energy in the chemical bonds is where that "extra" energy comes from.

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Male 4
My 12" miracle tube releases more energy than goes into it too. Big deal.
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Female 101
Thats not it, they`ve stumbled into an old grove and found a clan of fairies!

They have now captured the clan who are being harvested for their densely powered magical fairy dusts.

It`s so OBVIOUS!!1!

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Male 632
The secret catalyst is bull`s poo.
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Male 1,406
Oh, and it is impossible for something to work at 100% efficiency, much less 200%.
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Male 1,406
The only way this could work is taking energy from a
source we don`t normally see. If it breaks the laws of physics, you`re looking at it wrong, and that could have serious problems. If it`s not taking it from a regular power source, where is the energy coming from...?
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Male 393
Of course this is possible. All you lunatics banging on about constant energy levels etc don`t know what on earth you are talking about. If i plug something (say a hairdryer) into the wall socket, then turn it on.... i get HOT AIR!. Where do you think that came from smarty pants? One minute there is nothing, then there is hot air, simple. Same as this device, you plug it in and it heats up. The fact that it gets warmer than it should (how warm SHOULD it get eh?) is beside the point. The real point is that it heats up the water. I wish all you pseudo scientists out there would pay more attention. I think this invention is nice, but i cant see anything special about it. I have a fan heater in my room that does EXACTLY the same thing. Come on IAB, Next you`ll be putting kettles or something on here.
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Male 28
Exactly. Heat pumps have been made with coefficients of performance greater than ten.

The electricity just provides work to change the state of the fluid. From the diagram, some of the water becomes gas bubbles- likely just a simple case of electrolytic degrading to oxygen and hydrogen. Assuming that is the case, the reaction is endothermic, so the temperature drops and heat can be transferred to the mixture from the environment and then when hydrostatic equillibrium is resumed, the temperature is greater than that of a simple work to heat conversion.

Basically, it`ll make the water hotter by making the surrounding air cooler. As this thing is only a foot long, the cooling effect will seem negligible.

However, as stated, energy must be conserved, so the energy "saved" by this device is coming from central heating- something else you pay for, minus entropy losses, so you pay more.

To put it simply, if work in is equal to heat out, how come your fridge isnt an oven?

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Male 813
*whoops, I mean a heat pump.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#E...
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Male 813
A heat engine outputs 4 times the energy it uses. This really isn`t that special.
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Male 104
whitemn, i get your point, but understand that when i say "feed it back" i dont mean feed the hot water back, i mean use it (as you would) to generate electricity (steam powered generator or whatever) then use some of the leftover energy to power the device. By their own argument, that should power the device indefinitely without the need for any external input - it would be an entirely closed system.

I`m sorry, but i`m calling bullsh*t.

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Male 946
lmao @ chillywhack hahaha
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Male 155
I mean that is it cant be recycled energy unless it boiled the water then it could be useful as a nice alternative for steam power. But again, its all about how renewable and cost effective it is.
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Male 155
*truckless* you have to realize that its not creating energy its converting energy, taking heat generated by electricity/catalyst. Those things covert into thermal energy which heats the water. Therefore you cant convert the allready hot water back into the beginning of the system. Its all dependent on what the hell the secret catalyst is.
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Male 957
unfortunately it sounds fake. i like the idea of the device however it sounds useful!
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Male 650
btw to the title
thats what she said
oooh burn
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Male 30
the funny thing about these sort of `discoveries` is that they never materialise into anything. if it really was that amazing, and DID defy the laws of physics, then it would be all over the news, and the press would be crawling all over it
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Male 98
let me just say this; FAKE
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Male 1,407
Yeah...I`ll wait to read about this in some scientific journal, not some b-side British quasi-tabloid.
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Male 104
Ugh... ffs.

Lemme ask a quick question, and see what people have to say about it:

If this thing produces two times as much energy as you put in, why (the f*&£) would you stop there? Why not take some of the energy you just "created" and feed it back in to get twice as much as that. And then take some of THAT energy and... yeah, feed it back. Pretty soon you`d have a mini sun in your loft-space. Spiderman 2 anyone?

Come on - this is the daily mail. For people who dont live in the UK, it`s one of the worst newspapers in england.

In short, if this device worked, we would never need to use any non-renewable energy source again. Dunno what they got going there, but it sure isn`t free energy.

Just my £0.02 (does that even work for british people?)

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Male 240
CAWK JOKE
<===3
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Male 2,586
King_Duckey - the definition of catalyst is something that speeds up a reaction without getting changed in the process! - so even if it was petrol, it wouldn`t matter...

Woo- English Scientists kick arse!

But yet again, something else that America will buy the rights to and then screw the rest of the world for...

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Male 810
Err, technology, in the case that it`s real and this isn`t just some retarded news article, and the engineers did actually stumble upon something useful
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Male 4,246
Note to inventors: DON`T tell people about how amazing your invention is, if even YOU don`t know exactly how it works.
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Male 810
This is the creating of history in the process folks.

I have a feeling a chain of unfortunate events are going to unravel themselves upon the fame of this invention.

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Male 82
If it works it works. If it doesn`t then next.

If this thing cuts bills and emmissions then everyone should be required by law to have one.

Just my opinion

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Male 5,094
Impossible. The amount of energy in the universe is fixed and finite, ie. energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transmuted.
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Male 550
Two possibilities:
1) The extra heat is taken somewhere else they are not aware of.
2) Our present tubes somehow suppress the actual amount of heat generated.
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Male 120
I believe everything I read about the internet, especially from inventors that claim to not understand how their devices work.

Why is this even up here? Is everyone retarded?

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Male 203
This device does NOT produce more energy that it consumes. NOTHING does; it would violate the first and second laws of thermodynamics. These laws are no more optional than the law of gravity.

IF this device produces more HEAT energy than ELECTRICAL energy input then what`s the “secret catalyst”. Fuel, perhaps?

This is just a press splash from some money-grubbing `inventors` and `engineers`, looking to dupe the public.

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Male 270
200 percent output compared to what is put in. So that means energy isn`t coming from nothing, but from something we don`t count as input.
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Female 299
Unless the inventor is God, I don`t believe it. Something that puts out twice as much as what you put in? Impossible. This is a lazyass` dream...
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Male 161
I`ve had a 12 inch miracle tube for years now. hehe
Sorry. I had to do it. Besides, you know someone else was going to.
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Male 162
theyll figure it out eventually, and then theyll realize that it really isnt even that amazing and it doesnt work
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Male 317
I`ve heard of many things that have some `miracle` effect on everyday life, I just hope this one actually works out to help the rest of the world.
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Male 380
Energy cannot be created or destroyed, simply changed.

This goes against all of science!

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Female 250
wow this would be sweet!
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Male 869
Link: 12 Inch Miracle Tube Could Halve Heating Bills [Rate Link] - I was always taught you can never create more energy than you put in.
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