Log in with a social network:
Log in with your username or email:
and it ends....
NinjaChiibi is an ignorant, lazy, idiot
Continuing my train of thought on this matter, it would make more sense if a fish and a lizard were cousins, than a lizard being a direct decendant of a fish. Somone please correct me if im wrong though. It just seems to me that it works out better for the laws (or at least how Ive interpreted them) if there was a single type of creature way long ago who had some offspring which went on to mutate into what is now crustaceans, some of its offspring mutated into Fish, some mutated into amphibians, and from the amphibians into terrestrial lizards? Rather than a lizard coming from a fish. If they were all descended from one central creature, million of years ago, it would explain how they can have traits today which bring them together, and have developed further mutations such as the diverse species, and labryinth organs. Im just thinking online now though.
And congratulations most of everyone on remaining fairly mature through 14 pages of posts.
I feel I must point out that you contradicted yourself in that sentence. A lungfish cannot be both "another species of fish" and "STILL the same species just a different variety". The only time that a different variety occurs within a species is as a breed. This also almost always only occurs in domesticated animals such as the horse, cat, rabbit and dog which have developed recognizable breeds through selective breeding (and unfortunately culling) performed by humans.
`King Phillip Came Over For Good Spaghetti``Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species`
The lungfish is a seperate species, but is a member of the same KPCOFG as mulitple other living beings. i dont know how far up the chain a fish becomes a lizard cousin though.
You may very well be if you purport to be aware of the thoughts of your family. Sorry, but I felt this thread could do with a little humor.
Ooh, I can do that! My family thinks I`m crazy, but I can move my ears - in fact if I hear a loud noise behind me, my ears shift backwards so I can hear behind me, better. I don`t think it`s too big of a movement, though. Sick! I want that
You might find the following interesting, which basically spells out the point you are making
"We really need to admit that we (and science) cannot answer everything."
but then you contradict that statement by saying:
"There are many things that I explain by saying `God did it.`"
You seem uncomfortable with your ignorance such that you must label it differently or ascribe the blame to something else other than yourself. I freely admit I am ignorant of x number of things that science cannot provide answers for, but that doesn`t mean we cannot treat unknowable questions (is there a God? What are our origins?) scientifically in the meantime, namely that we should reject those hypotheses with insufficient evidence, regardless whether our desire to know such things can reconcile that rejection.
You`re right in that we should admit we know not everything, but that doesn`t mean we should ascribe our own ignorance to some other power beyond ourselves.
DbtG: You are exactly right. There are many things that I explain by saying "God did it." I do this because we don`t know everything. You probably consider this a weakness in the argument for Christianity, but it really isn`t. We really need to admit that we (and science) cannot answer everything. If you wish to discuss this any further please email me at [email protected] instead of posting on here, because I really don`t check this website too often.
I think many Christians believe in God because it`s an easy explanation for incomprehensible things. Confused about something that happened? God did it. Wonder where something came from? God made it. etc...
People started believing in gods because they couldn`t explain or understand the changes in weather. And by becoming a Christian (or Jew or Muslim) in modern society, you don`t have to hurt your head trying to wrap it around rational thought. You can just say "God did it", cite the Bible and dismiss everybody else`s opinion.
I have deleted the embarassing post. I know most Christians are good people, and I don`t want to tar all christians with the same brush. I am only arguing here against people who take the Bible literally.
I believe there is a place for religion in society, if taken in context. I just get pisseed off when people try to pass of pseudoscience like answersingenesis.org in a serious debate.
I apologise if I offended your faith, that was not my intention. I only ask that you respect my beliefs in return, which I`m sure you will do.
Please stop spouting your brand of bulllpoo. I`ve got a PhD in geology. What have you got? A favourite tag on Answersingenesis.org and high school diploma. Get educated before you decide to "preach"
Hbah427: First of all, it is thought that the original "cosmic soup" of the big bang was comprised of random neutrons and protons that fused to form deuterium (an isotope of hydrogen)and helium. Afterwhich, the helium and hydrogen could transmute into the other elements, and heavier elements are thought to have been synthesized in stars. If you don`t know what transmutation of elements is, look it up.This is all theoretical of course, but there is evidence... but a point I`d like to make is this: when people don`t understand something, why do they feel compelled to ASSUME a supreme being is involved? Why are human beings so afraid to accept that they just don`t know?
Anybody who says anything like "Humans did not come from monkeys" isn`t worth explaining anything to, since they obviously don`t have the slightest idea what evolution really is.
The Lord knows I don`t have all the answers, sometimes I think that the theory of "7 days=billions of years" is the most logical. I guess Ill just have to wait until my earthly body dies to find out.
You seem to have a problem with this. This is totally possible. It`s just very hard to imagine the scale of billions of years and the kind of changes that happen.
You say it lacks information for feathers. I say you need to take a genetics course, because I`m not going to teach you a semester`s worth of reasons why that is, for lack of a better term, a pile of BSfffff
You say it lacks information for feathers. I say you need to take a genetics course, because I`m not going to teach you a semester`s worth of reasons why that is, for lack of a better term, a pile of BS.
second, this isnt about chair to table, its about chair to car, oen is wood one is metal, impossible.
for a dinosaur to ebcome a bird, the dinosaur woudl need more then just small mutations, it would need new biochemical information, since it lacks the information of the many factors of feathers, which aloen coutns for billions of extra dna, not to say the oils needed for flight.
the sad thing is, there is no real proof that one species change sinto another. not a single opunce of real scientific data, all we have is proof of speciation, kinds changing, but staying the same thing.
vestigial organs, evenm iof it were true, is not proof of evolution, lack of information in the opposite of evoltion, which is gaining new information.
Fish--------------------------------Lizard. ^ | This is not a half-fish, half-lizard.
Its just like vestigial organs; they arent useless, they just arent what they USED to be. You need your toes. Right now,we use them for balance. But we can`t hang upside-down on a tree with them anymore. Vestigial?Useless. Vestigial=No longer used for original function
And another thing. Mutations can occur where a single nucleotide is inserted, which, though often really screws things up be desynchronizing the codons, is ADDING a gene.
Which is different than adding "information". This concept of "arm information" is unfounded and shows th
I`ve read the Bible. I challenge you to read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, with an open mind, if you have the courage. But to a dyed-in-the-wool hardcore brainwashed creationist like you, there`s probably no point.
Listen man, whatever helps you sleep at night. Just stop trying to wedge "faith" into a serious scientific discussion about evolution.
At last you show your true colours, a faith-based creationist who would rather believe a 2500 year old book of fables over observable science. Need a "transitional species"? Try Archaeopteryx, transition from lizard to bird.
As a professional geologist, creationism is an affront to science. I work for an oil company, finding oil. If I based my search on Noah`s flood and a 6000 year old earth I would not find anything & lose my job pretty fast. Next time you put gas in your car, thank your Lord God (who was a nasty [email protected] by the way if you actually read the Old Testament) that some people out there don`t believe in Genesis but who base their profession on science.
Please stop propagating the myth that there`s a debate among the respected scientific community between creationism and evolution. There is no such debate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent...
But I`m sick of this. You did bring some valid arguments, but in the end neither of us is going to budge. It all boils down to trusting either Bibles or textbooks.
Sorry, Ninja, I gotta go to work. But I`ll be back in a few hours.
What the hell?Real logic: It is unreasonable to believe that something can exist without having a beginning.
An invisible man in the sky made everything there ever was or ever will be in six days. That is creationism.
" The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time—God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Is. 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause."
And if you still believe in Creationism, more power to you. I happen to disagree. But Creationism is NOT A SCIENCE. SCIENCE IS BASED ON DATA. CREATIONISM IS BASED ON FAITH.
For instance, if carbon dating puts the Earth to be about 4.53 billion years old, you can`t say "I interpret that to mean that the Earth is a few thousand years old".
Scientists gather evidence, then form a conclusion.Creationists have a conclusion, then backpedal to find evidence to support it.
But I will read your side of the argument with an open mind since you did the same.
The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called
I quote:If you squish a mosquito all the genetic coding for it is there, but the mosquito is dead. You have taken an organized being and, by squishing it, you deorganized it. Now you are telling me that if I left that bug on the wall for billions of years it would eventually organize itself into a being.--------------------------------------------------
That is the stupidest thing I`ve heard EVER!. Your argument claims a single organism cant change into another. Of course it cant u muppet! I cant suddenly sprout wings now can I! Thats not evoulution. its not about a single organism. What i would like you to answer is this..30 generations of mice bred in lab. Do you think, the original pair of mice have EXACTLY the same set of genes the latest offspring have? Of course not. My children do not have the genes as me. They have a mixture of my genetic code and my partners. And you know what...its PROVEN that the genetic code can get messed up.
New species only come after thousands of mutations and millions of years. Of course no scientist could directly witness a single evolution, it happens so gradually it`s barely noticeable.
That is what evolution is.
"a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes".
and here is the evidence. Unbiased. Factual. Indisputable.
Proof for NinjaChibi
I know Wikipedia isn`t 100% acurate all the time, but it`s a start while I find more reliable links that verify the evidence I`ve brought.
So lets start with this.
There is, however, proof of codons and DNA--just like there`s proof of hair and skin and teeth. It`s visible. It`s there.
Why don`t you learn a little bit about genetic sciences and get back to me?
The basic pieces of code that make up DNA come in four types: G A T and C. THOSE are what are copied and deleted not "information" as a whole--the DNA.
GATCGAGA may be the code for a bump-arm. Copy part of it, and you have GAGATCGAGA--a completely different code, maybe for an arm.
Keep in mind there are trillions of these little sections in EACH and EVERY strand of DNA! Is any of this getting through to you?
Also, I don`t see how a fish`s coding could change into a more complex genetic code. A lot of animals are definitely more complex than fish. Basically what you are saying is that DNA can evolve into a more powerful DNA through mutation. Which is saying that information was added rather than deleted or copied. And that just doesn`t work.
Your thinking about it totally wrong. It takes numerous generations, slight mutations and an unknown amount of failed evolutionary dead ends. Whilst "survival of the fittests" isnt the best term it sums it up. If the mutation is detrimental to the organisms existance it will most likely be eaten by a predator. Only those that survive get to pass on their gene`s.
What I find most amusing is silly ass posts from people saying "You cannot make a make a wing if the only genes you have are for arms". Of course an arm wont turn into a wing overnight. >
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANDIN THE BLUE CORNER ; DARWIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT THIS TO BE A CLEAN FIGHT...
Edit: okay =]
I can`t show you where it made more genes, I know little on that subject, but ^ is an example where a mutation helps an animal.
I just gave you one, lemme say it again: "For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes." From wikipedia. Basically, people have HIV resistance because of altered genes.
Notice it`s not ONLY taking things away, however, that still is a part of it.
Ninja, that is something like a birth defect. If you have something different in your body from genetics, like say.. another rib, then that can be passed onto your offsprring.
It`s quite simple really...
Lets say a squirrel with purple fur is born. How long do you think its going to survive?
davymid: Add me to msn and I would be happy to explain, but at the moment we are discussing evolution.
Still waiting for that alternative, better hypothesis...
Skip down to the molecular part.
I laughed at that...(sorry skiped a few pages), I have a question Christian...who said that Jesus ruled heven and earth...Jesus? wait...that means he says he has control, but what do you know? Have you seen your god or any "signs"?
I have no reason to belive in your petty belives..but if you want to fine...but don`t push it on people
Won`t hold my breath.
As a professional geologist/palaeontologist, the fact that we do see ANY records at all in the fossil record is a matter of miracle. With plate tectonic cyclesand abrasive sedimetary processes being what they are, soft matter preservation is a miracle in itself. So if there was a murder scene, and we only had snapshots of the crime, the getaway, do we need every bit of CCTV footage along the way to convict the criminal?
No. Postulation of evolution, by small incremental improvements, elegantly delivers the great diversity of life on earth.
Please spell it out for me ninja, if not natural selection, what is your alternative hypothesis?
Do either of you have msn? slurba or neurolRu because this is far too complicated to explain over forum.([email protected])
I haven`t yet finished thoroughly reading the posts thus far although I`ve been monitoring this thread for some time, secretly hoping it would bear fruit in the form of an evolution debate.
I`ll return once I`ve done my research but for now, NeurolRu, you`re doing a great job. You may find it useful to inform them about generation time and why bacteria evolve much, much more quickly into new strains than larger organisms evolve into new species.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6913934.stm. Please. Please please please read this and then expand your mind to apply it to some other things.
This is the best way I could describe it.
To all the Christian apologists out there- I`m a Muslim. Or I`m a Hindu. Or I`m some guy who lives in the African jungle, never met a missionary. Or I`m a child who died after 2 days. Am I going to hell?
The biggest coup that the Christian Taleban (I`m talking to you, Middle America) ever pulled off was to convince the world that there`s a "Debate" going on in the world of science as to whether evolution is real or not. THERE IS NO SUCH DEBATE AMONG THE GLOBAL, RESPECTED SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent... and please read the whole article... I`ve read The Bible (I`m a recovering Christian) and I`ve read science books. I prefer evidence over a 2500 year old book of fables written by 100+ authors who thought the sun went round the earth.
Stop believing the propaganda, and please watch htt
God`s law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly away. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient`s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally find another pair of birds. Kill one and dip the live bird in the dead bird`s blood. Wipe some blood on the patient`s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle the house with blood 7 times. That`s all there is to it.
*wipes sweat off forehead*
I`m bored with this now... buh bye
Prove to me, The_Maddog, that without a doubt evolution is true. I would really like to see your "valid argument".
happens every time IAB posts something that offends the religious nuts!
What hell does every other religion say you idiot? Belive in this that or the other....You know what..i`ve seen to may people die or suffer due to random acts (nature or manmade) to buy what your selling...FFS dude...just go out and see the world for what it really is!
manwithwhatever... My belief would not be crushed. The bible says that if you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved and spend eternity in his presence. In your theory, you will be there, and I don`t have a problem with that. I`m not missing out on ANYTHING in life living the way I do. WIN WIN for me!!
The evolution that we are saying is not true is the evolution of man from single celled organisms. If you can believe that we are where we are from that, talk about blind faith. I see God`s work every day. I see the wonderful miracles everyday. The miracles are recorded in the bible. Yeah yeah, the bible is fiction, but where is the book that discredits the bible, and how old is it??
Religion is, by and large, a good thing. Religion is an effective system designed to keep the peace and maintain a level of morality in a society. There are instances where religion causes war or strife but in that way it functions little different from a government. Furthermore, making blanket statements against all of Christianity is simply ignorant. We are talking about more than 1/6 of the world population.
Woot45: You`ve unwittingly stated that you do, infact, believe in evolution. Evolution at its most basic level is define as nothing more than, "change over time". The difference between a pug and a beagle is evolution and macro evolution at that. For future arguments I suggest you stay away from that entire line of comments, no need to open that debate. Your comments about mating deers and bears shows an ignorance of the subject matter. In fact, what an animal can mate with is one of the ways we decide what species it is.Your accusations that scientific evidence has been faked is baseless and without merit. Who has shown that there has been faked evidence? What evidence has been faked? And if only half of the evidence is fake then does that not mean that we still a massive amount of information pointing to the validity of Natrual Selection? La
You must be fulfilled if you`re on I-am-bored calling people who trust scientific evidence "stupid".Christianity doesn`t fulfill, it corrupts with arrogance.
Lol at you...most people DONT do what the want because they are afraid of repercusions..I dont rob a bank because I`m afraid of going to prison, not God..Get a grip ffs!You only ever see this stupid crap off american christians!
Lets recap. Your Christian, with a "blessed" life! Lucky you. In my time on this planet I`ve seen nothing that proves "God". I`m no expert, nor will I ever be. I`ve read the holy books of 5 religions and found nothing but thought control..not for modern day man but previous uneducated ages if you will. I`ve taken intrest in what science has to offer and that seems to be bang on! We are animals..clever animals but animals none the less..I`ve seen man commit attrocites against man, I`ve seen horrific things happen to children. I`ve seen the underbelly of what "humanity" brings! God was not there for thoses innocents! "If" he exists, he certainly dosnt care! I`ll stick with scinces guess work rather than some big hairy bloke in the sky casting magic tricks!
I personally take that risk for 1 main reason, if I am wrong there is a loophole, in the bible it says god forgive all. IF I am wrong then I go to a paradise like place and good times are had by all. If you are wrong everything you have believed in is crushed, but you wouldn`t be able to think that because your consciousness is destroyed. I like my gamble best.
Dead Sea Scrolls?
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 18:18-20
However, religion has never been able to prove themselves right or wrong without using the term "faith" which is the only thing scientists can`t use practically.
My money is on logical and deductive reasoning. You know, "the world is flat"... "Wait, I just sailed from one land mass and ended up completely at the other side and didn`t see a drop-off point." .... "Hmmm, deduction and logic tells me that science was wrong! The world is not flat, it must be round, lets test that theory!"
This was going on while the deeply religious were saying, "There is a God and you must worship him!" ... "Really? I don`t see him, where is this God of whom you speak?" ... "You must have faith!"... "You`re full of Poo!" .... "
OK, I`m back. The only thing I can see that you are refering to is when I commented about the Earth being 6000 years old and creation taking 6 days, because everything else was questions. Now, I know the claims of rocks being found that "dated" back to millions of years. If you follow science, you will see a pattern. Science is ALWAYS changing, and proving itself wrong. Check it out!
Babidee... without being rude (which is something you need to work ok), pick a side, ok? If you read your bible, and you believe what it says, then how can you believe in evolution?
Oh...lemme think now..How many people have died in the name of religion? How many deaths in "Gods" name? Lemme guess..your religion is right, all others are wrong. Wake up, look around you and learn something will ya. I cant disprove God to you, nor do I wish too..But really..educate yourself in those things you think science is wrong in ok before you start spouting nonsense!
How about common sense
ARE ANIMALS SELF-AWARE? DO THEY HAVE THOUGHTS? DREAMS, ASPIRATIONS?
btw, why the name calling? That wasn`t very nice!
I am glad you see it my way. Would any other mindless religious idiots like to confess? Oh, to answer your question, since it was not a God that made those laws, then it was humans. See how easy that was?
Thank you very, very much for that.Hoorah for high school Biology!
Thanks for listening to my rant on religion and have a nice day.
I think he was making a joke.
I would miss my toes...
-----------------------------------------------The first intelligent post I`ve seen in a long time. You win the internetz!
Humans didn`t come from monkeys. Humans didn`t come from apes. Humans and apes both came from a common ancestor.
Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
More information about this error may be available in the server error log.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.Apache/1.3.37 Server at decimation.com Port 80
"You are a cousin not just of apes, but of the sequoia and the amoeba, of mosses and butterflies and blue whales" -- Dale McGowan